Burnt out already

[printman31]

Hello people,

I just strolled upon this forum as I was searching for scouting info. I've just started as a DL for our new tiger den. But I've been an ADL for a year now. My problem is that I'm burnt out on all this already. I was hesitant in getting involved with scouting in the first place due to the fact that anytime you get a bunch of people together. Theres always going to be butting of heads. Well the butting of heads & power trips has just gotten way out of control with this pack. It's gotten so bad that I'm seriously considering quitting as DL & pulling my kids out of scouts all together. I keep my kids away from activities now just not to deal with certain people in the pack. Funny thing is I'm not the only one who does this. Many other parents limit their Childs scout activities also because of certain people on our committee. There doesn't seem to be any course of action that can be taken against these people either. Not because they hold high ranking positions. But because the rest of the committee seem to be afraid to speak up (something I can't relate with). I was under the impression that scouting would be a good thing for my kids. And those adults would be able to put their power trips & petty differences aside for the betterment of all the kids. It appears that I was way off the mark with my image of scouting. Personally I think this pack should be shut down completely. But that's not going to happen. So the next best thing is to pull my kids from this pack. I'm undecided if I even want to put my kids in another pack or not. I've heard these same problems with other packs/troops in the area. So right now I'm leaning towards total removal.

 

Let me apologize for venting on my very first post. But it felt good to preach to someone other than the choir.

 

 

[Crew21_Adv]

printman31,

 

Greetings!

 

 

Are you asking for advice?

If you should remove your sons from Scouting completely?

 

My response is.... Totally removing youth from Scouting is an option, but I would make it the absolutely last and final option.

 

What else would they do? Play youth sports where you may encounter sports parents which "Butt heads". Some other alternatives are community based recreational programs. Maybe less butting of heads, but you are paying big bucks to a community program to hire one minimum wage 19 y/o physical fitness college major to watch 50-60 other peoples kids. A young college student may never know or care what your son's names are. Maybe an afterschool educational homework program. Less youth recreational interaction and a better student to teacher ratio.

 

There are other options besides Scouting, but I believe Scouting is the best program out there. Possibly not the immediate Cub Scout Pack that you and your sons are in. But you stated there are other Packs in your community.

 

A common response you may receive, will be... Have you and the other Den Leaders, and your Pack Committee attended Cub Scout Specifics training?

 

 

Let me state it this way, my district just completed training this past weekend. As we moved thru NLE and the newest Cub Scout Specifics, we spoke and discussed Communications.

 

Not all boys will instantly get along, or work together smoothly. Most all Scouts do. But not all of them. Communications is a obstacle for everyone to overcome.

 

It sounds like your burn out, is caused by a lack of communicating common goals.

 

Making it more difficult, parents (if they are Den Leaders, Committee Members, or Cubmaster) will need to come together for similar goals. The boys will probably get along better than their parents. Ideally having the same goal and vision, (not exactly quoted) by enabling their sons to make good moral decisions throughout a lifetime by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The parents, Committee Members, Den Leaders and Cubmaster will be able to communicate better and continue to work towards a common goal.

 

I would agree with your initial impression. Scouting would be a good thing for your sons.

 

But if the Pack leadership and Pack committee cannot communicate, or will not attend training; they may never understand or agree on a common goal. Unfortunately, it may be time to look at another Pack.

 

Personally, My Pack, Troop and Crew have made many, many Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturers and parents happy. But we have not made everyone happy. Well I'd say our success rate is 99 percent (maybe 98), in satisfying the needs of the youth in our community. The high success rate is attributed to training, similar goals and communications.

 

If we did not communicate, our units would never have lasted.

 

Not all Packs (or Troops, or Crews) are the same. There is a common baseline of safety, and a common baseline of handbooks, and program material. But there is a fairly wide avenue to get to the same destination. I would think it is far to early for you to generalize all Cub Scout Packs, by saying you've heard about others.

 

So... Finally...

I would recommend enrolling in the next NLE and Specifics. Ask your fellow Den Leaders and Pack Committee if they would like to attend with you. Ask them if they are attending Roundtable. Ask if the Pack and a newsletter, webpage, blog or Pack Secretary for distributing communications.

 

If they refuse to go to training, or will not communicate. Then yes, seek out another Pack where the Scouts appear happy and they are more willing to communicate towards a common goal.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[NancyB]

I can relate. There are a lot of troops/packs that expect too much. It's fine if you only have one son or just sons, but if you have a daughter, the demands that scouting places on the family may be too much. Daughter's and spouses should not have to make those types of sacrifices. Family time is important too. And yes, I know that the spouses and daughters can come to a lot of the functions, but my daughter is bored at blue and gold banquets and all that other stuff and would prefer to be with her friends.

 

Unfortunately, I've also run into the problem with troops whose purpose seems to be to fulfill the egos of the leaders rather than the needs of the boys. One of those in our area recently shut down b/c the parents just got tired of it and all quit and moved to other packs.

 

I don't know where you are from, but the suggestion to look for another pack/troop only works if you are in a bigger area. We have quite a few towns around here that don't even have one troop, let alone two to choose from. And with the cost of gas, driving 20 miles each way to meetings and such with other troops isn't always a practical solution. And with that type of distance, your children won't be able to have good friendships with the other boys b/c he will always be the outsider. Kids from the same area and same school share many more activities and after school time together. If you are from a little more distance where that just isn't going to happen, your son will always feel left out (we tried this with a non-scouting activity in the next town with both of my children and they both had this complaint) so not an easy choice.

 

If this doesn't fit the needs of your child and your family, then I would say look elsewhere. If your child is miserable or you are miserable, no one is going to enjoy it and you'll get a bad taste in your mouth for scouting permanently. My daughter didn't like girl scouts and after going to a few meetings, I could understand why. Her leader was running the meetings like a school setting with raising their hands and everything. After a full day of school, the girls didn't want that type of environment. So we went looking for something else that fit her needs and she is so much happier. I no longer have to fight with her about going to meetings or activities. And, as a bonus, her favorite activity has no major fundraising!

 

My son is also trying out various activities as he will probably be leaving scouting due to problems with the leadership. He's still in there for now as we've paid for several scouting functions (non-refundable) and there are some issues with getting his money out of the scouting accounts.

 

I agree that training helps, but that isn't necessarily going to cure the problem. The fact that all doctors graduated from medical school doesn't necessarily mean that they are good doctors. The fact that all of your scout leaders may have attended the training doesn't necessarily make them good scout leaders. They may have been a body in the room during training; they may choose not to implement what they have learned; they may think that their way is better.

 

But I do have to add that the more that I read messages on this board, the more I understand what scouting can and should be and I am saddened that this just isn't happening where we live either. There are so many positives out there that I wish my son could experience, but b/c of leadership problems, he won't. When I talk to parents whose sons are involved in other troops (unfortuantely about 2 hours from where we live), I am thrilled to hear that they are able to have such a good experience for their sons, but I admit to jealousy that it isn't working out in our troop. So I can understand your dilemma. While i wait for the money issues to be straightened out, I keep hoping that things will change for the better.

[Mr. Boyce]

Just two cents here.

 

I look at my youth scouting as having had a FAR MORE VALUABLE impact on me, in terms of developing skills, working with people, picking up on important social skills and values.

 

I was active in many sports. None really taught me much of this stuff, other than, perhaps, trying to pick yourself up once you're down.

 

You know, in recent years I've been working on developing "followership" skills. Everybody and Sam wants to be THE BIG LEADER in things. This is perhaps one of the sources of conflicts in your unit. But I think good followers, good Indians and not chiefs, can just constantly do subtle improvement inputs that help out, smooth things out, make things run better. Perhaps this is a kind of slow, subterranean leadership, although I'm not trying to be a good follower in order to be a leader.

[printman31]

Thanks to all that replied so far.

I have went through all the training that is required of me being the Tiger den leader. I also know that the main culprits of the hate & discontent have also went through training. The problem seems to be that those people didn't take in the values that scouting is supposed to portray. There are some good people here that only want to help the boys progress. Then we have those who think of this as some sort of position of power. They have a constant double standard in dealing with others. These kids pick up on it real quick.I already have my tigers asking me why these boys can run around & why can't they.

Yes I do also have a daughter & she get's extremely bored @ these pack meetings. We also have her in the girl scouts. But her scout leader seems to be a very good leader. I'm in an urban area & the choices of packs are numerous. I'm really afraid of having my kid exposed to the same things at another pack. Money is also sort of an issue. I just paid for my 2 boys.I know if I switched packs I would only have to pay $1.00. But that really wouldn't be fair to that pack who would have to purchase all the badges for my boys. I myself absolutely won't ever again get involved in the running of any scout activities.I'm just stuck on if I should pull my kids out entirely or not.

[NeilLup]

There's a saying in Boy Scout training:

 

"If you send a monkey to training, you get a trained monkey."

 

Somewhat of a corollary to that is:

 

If you put a Scout leader uniform on a helicopter parent or snowplow parent, you get a helicopter or snowplow parent wearing a Scout leader uniform.

 

If you put a Scout leader uniform on someone who is Machiavellian or someone who likes to be the "big cheese", you get the big cheese or Machiavelli wearing a Scout leader uniform.

 

The point is that what you are seeing is not "Scouting" other than in the sense that Scouting uses local adults and volunteers. It is the particular Pack in your local area.

 

The smallest working group in Cub Scouting is a den. In all seriousness, you and your friends can establish a den, you can have chartered a one den Pack as a starting place and have the opportunity to have your sons benefit from Cub Scouting as you think it reasonably should be.

 

But Scouting isn't for everybody and not every Pack is a Pack which is right for you and your son. That's a judgement that you need to make. But I would suggest that before you decide to just leave, contact your local council office and talk to the District Executive about your concerns. They may not be aware of the situation and even if you leave, they will appreciate knowing your observations and it may give them information needed to work with and improve the Pack.

[fleetfootedfox]

Yeah, scouting places big demands on people, but not necessarily more than other activities. I know people who complain about there being a meeting a week, but have their kids in sports that practice 2-3 times per week.

 

True, scouting isn't as seasonal as some sports. You can take a break from most sports, but if you're a DL, it's hard to take a break from scouting, because doing so will prevent your boys from advancing. Of course, Karate (which my boys did for years) is all year long, and I know a lot of boys that play soccer all year.

 

Of course, you can't take a break from being a mom or dad either, although I'm sure everybody would like to be able to. If you're a pastor, you can't take a break from church.

 

So, like anything else (like being a parent or a pastor), scouting isn't for everybody. If you're burnt out already, maybe you should let other people take over for a while instead of pulling your kid out.

[ScoutMomSD]

I am really sorry.

 

I dont know if reading these boards will make you feel better or worse.

 

When we joined the pack, we ended up in what I would call the "leftover" Den. I admit that I was not happy about the situation. But what ended up happening is that the mom's (and pretty much for all but one child it was the mom who took the son to the meetings) banded together and did what it took to make our Den not only successful but really FUN and successful and now we have a Den that is great and I have some very good friends who are more like me than the other Den. And I have gotten involved in the committee meetings and sincerely enjoy the folks there and the pack overall.

 

Are there people I have had issues with, yes. Are there folks with opinions that are 180 degrees from mine, absolutely. But I have to say that I really really love our pack and it actually took me a while to get to that place. We have had difficulties but it seems that the difficulties have bonded us more and put us on the same side.

 

Communication is a HUGE issue. In scouting you are dealing with a group of people from different backgrounds and expectations. Women who have never worked, men who have high powered careers, divorced moms and dads, and everything in between, and to think everyone will come together and get along is crazy.

 

Gauge whether the positives outweigh the negatives. Does your son like the kids he is with? Do you? if not is it a personality thing or is it your or your son's personality. My son is very active and outgoing and the kind of kid that pretty much gets along with everyone, my daughter has a harder time making friends and tends to keep a few really good friends.

 

I had kids later in life and choose the people and events I spend my time with carefully as life is short. If you hate it get out, if you think you can help save it, help and try to make it work.

[DeanRx]

Printman31 -

 

I feel for you. I really do. Sorry to hear you are not having an enjoyable expirience with your pack.

 

May I offer a couple suggestions...

 

1) If you have 5 or more boys / families that feel as you do, you can form a den and charter your own pack. True, it will be a good amount of work, but I'd rather have 5 involved parents all pulling together than 35 half-involved parents all pulling in different directions.

 

2) Ask yourself WHY you (or your daughters or even your son) is bored with the pack meetings. Sounds like they could use a little "jazzing up". If your CM is not much of a 'showman', then offer to plan part of the pack meeting for him. Get you and a couple parents together and come up with a crazy game, skit, or song that will fire the kids up. The pack meeting should be fun - if its not, then the leadership of the pack is not doing their job. Unfortunately, this can happen easily.

 

3) Hang in there. I personally believe that being a Tiger DL is the toughest job in cub scouting. Why? Because A) they're 1st graders, they have the attention span of a gnat. B) In order to advance, you have to coordinate 5 field trips (go-see-its). No other rank badge requires this amount of trip planning on a DL's part. C) A parent must attend every meeting. While most often this is helpful, sometimes it can be a distration, especially when too many of the adult partners want to either control everything or they don't want to be involved at all.

 

Thats why youth sports is sooooo much easier than scouting. Unless you volunteer to coach, you get to dump little Johnny off at practice or the game, sit on the sideline in your folding chair, fiening interest in the last goal scored, while you sip a Starbucks and either talk on the cell phone, or talk with the other parents. Youth sports are fine, but they are hardly quality time with your child.

 

Scouting madates parental involvement. At the cub level, there's no reason you can't involve the ENTIRE family !!

 

When our Pack does the Pinewood, or Space Derby, or Raingutter Regata, we ALWAYS have a sibling bracket that gets to race. Siblings ALWAYS get a certificate of participation. We want them to feel (whether male or female) that they are valued and part of the group. For the younger siblings, we have specific games on family campouts tailored to them (even to the toddler age). We even call them the "Chipmunk" patrol. Treat them as if they are their own Den at Pack activities.

 

What I'm getting at is you can leave scouting. But what does that do for your kids? What does it teach about determination or about overcoming obstacles or about getting along with some people you may not like for the betterment of the larger group? Those are the lessons you have an opportunity to teach. Not via a lecture, but by your own actions. They are the lessons your kids will remember.

 

If your kid is unhappy, then look for another pack or start your own. If you are unhappy, then look for what is within your power to affect change within your scout unit and do it. Hold your own standards with your Den. They will take pride in themselves because of it. At a recent pack show, I held up the CS 'sign' to get attention and have everyone quiet down. The Tiger Den was the first and fastest responders to it. I pointed out that they beat the WEBELOS Den in reaction time. The pride on their faces was priceless. The pat on the back to the DL was an atta boy for a job well done w/ his Den.

 

Sorry for the ramble, but I'll leave you with this:

 

If you want change, start with yourself and what YOU can control in the situation. Do what you know to be right and "be a duck" to everything else (let it roll off your back). Leaders don't cut and run, they lead. You need to decide if you're a leader or not.

 

Best of luck with your decision. You're a concerned and involved parent, so I KNOW you'll make the best choice for your family.

 

YiS,

 

DeanRx

[Mr. Boyce]

You've got many good responses. All I would add is that you're fortunate to be living in an area in which you can pick and choose a unit. If you lived on a farm, you wouldn't have such options.

 

You know yourself how intense your situation is. But I would not rule out moving to a more pacific unit.

[gwd-scouter]

Printman, you posted: I was hesitant in getting involved with scouting in the first place due to the fact that anytime you get a bunch of people together. Theres always going to be butting of heads.

 

I don't mean to throw negativity on your situation, but it seems you had a negative attitude going in. With that in mind, it can certainly make the problems you are encountering seem worse.

 

That said, since you are the Tiger DL, focus all your attention on the Den, the boys, and their parents. Your Pack may have some fighting among the Committee Members, but it shouldn't have such an impact on what you do with your Den. Your Den can and should be planning activities that don't rely on any Pack planning.

 

You don't mention what type of activities you are keeping your boys away from. Campouts? Pack meetings? What exactly is it that the Committee members are butting heads over?

 

I surely hope you don't let a few adults behaving badly tarnish your image of Scouting. Any youth organization you join will likely have such adults. Heck, that is also true for work, school, church, etc. But it has been my experience that the vast majority of Scouters and parents are there to ensure the boys have a good time, learn, and have a positive experience in Scouting.

 

This forum is a great place to vent your frustrations. We can all relate to situations such as yours. Now, having vented, take a deep breath and focus on having fun with your Tigers.

 

Edited to add: Oops, I forgot to say, Welcome to the Forum.(This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

[printman31]

Hello all,

Last night was den meetings nights. With my tiger den we did sun prints & leaf rubbings. Most importantly we finished the bobcat requirements. The kids had a wonderful time with the leaf rubbings. Don't know how something so simple can be so rewarding to them. I think some of the parents liked it even more than the kids did. With our Weblos 1 den we finished artist badge requirements & started on fitness. We had to get these kids motivated for the fitness. They were doing these lazy half hearted push ups. My daughter was @ the meeting being very quite. She just so happens to be in a Brownie troop. So us den leaders called her up to see if she could do better push ups. She showed up those boys & they got motivated real fast into doing proper push ups. One of the boys came up and gave me a hug. That's what this is all about.making these kids happy in learning things that will benefit them for a life time.

[printman31]

Hello all,

Last night was den meetings nights. With my tiger den we did sun prints & leaf rubbings. Most importantly we finished the bobcat requirements. The kids had a wonderful time with the leaf rubbings. Don't know how something so simple can be so rewarding to them. I think some of the parents liked it even more than the kids did. With our Weblos 1 den we finished artist badge requirements & started on fitness. We had to get these kids motivated for the fitness. They were doing these lazy half hearted push ups. My daughter was @ the meeting being very quite. She just so happens to be in a Brownie troop. So us den leaders called her up to see if she could do better push ups. She showed up those boys & they got motivated real fast into doing proper push ups. One of the boys came up and gave me a hug. That's what this is all about.making these kids happy in learning things that will benefit them for a life time.

[printman31]

Hello all,

Last night was den meetings nights. With my tiger den we did sun prints & leaf rubbings. Most importantly we finished the bobcat requirements. The kids had a wonderful time with the leaf rubbings. Don't know how something so simple can be so rewarding to them. I think some of the parents liked it even more than the kids did. With our Weblos 1 den we finished artist badge requirements & started on fitness. We had to get these kids motivated for the fitness. They were doing these lazy half hearted push ups. My daughter was @ the meeting being very quite. She just so happens to be in a Brownie troop. So us den leaders called her up to see if she could do better push ups. She showed up those boys & they got motivated real fast into doing proper push ups. One of the boys came up and gave me a hug. That's what this is all about.making these kids happy in learning things that will benefit them for a life time.

[printman31]

Hello all,

Last night was den meetings nights. With my tiger den we did sun prints & leaf rubbings. Most importantly we finished the bobcat requirements. The kids had a wonderful time with the leaf rubbings. Don't know how something so simple can be so rewarding to them. I think some of the parents liked it even more than the kids did. With our Weblos 1 den we finished artist badge requirements & started on fitness. We had to get these kids motivated for the fitness. They were doing these lazy half hearted push ups. My daughter was @ the meeting being very quite. She just so happens to be in a Brownie troop. So us den leaders called her up to see if she could do better push ups. She showed up those boys & they got motivated real fast into doing proper push ups. One of the boys came up and gave me a hug. That's what this is all about.making these kids happy in learning things that will benefit them for a life time.