BSA rules police

[ASM59]

So Beavah seems to indicate that pointing out the fact that someone is breaking the rules is to be judgmental, at least in the case of the thread this is spun from. Eamonn says that he does not want to be judge & jury in cases like this, his duty is to follow the rules himself and hopes that others will do likewise.

 

But where do we draw the line? On the one hand some want to accuse people of being judgmental for simply pointing out the rules and expecting others to follow them. On the other hand Im sure that there are some rules that if violated everyone on this board would stand up to chastise the offender.

 

So again I ask, What good are rules if there are no checks to see that the rules are being followed? And if we are a part of this organization, what right do we have to pick and choose which rules we follow and/or enforce?

 

In society, we have the police to enforce laws, but even the police rely on citizens to call in reports of suspicious activity. With out help they couldnt do as good of a job.

 

If we all adopt the attitude that we dont want to be judge and jury, then there will be no one to make sure the rules are being followed. So if it is not my place or anyone elses place to point out that someone is breaking the rules, whose place is it? Who is there to be the BSA rule breaker police?

 

ASM59

[Lisabob]

"Who is there to be the BSA rule breaker police?"

 

Truly I don't know but I am certainly glad it is not my job.

[Bob White]

According to the BSA it is the people whose position of responsibiltiy insignia includes the Wreath of Service. In other words Commissioners, DE's and SE's.

 

Ultimately however it is the responsibility of Charter organizations to choose quality leaders of good character and to require them to follow the rules of Scouting, of the charter organization, and the community.

 

In any business or organization there are people who just should not be there. People who simple are not good at what they do. The same is true of scouting. People who do not understand the relationship between operating within the rules of scouting and setting an example of good citizenship should be doing something other than scouting.

 

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Yea, thats right make it the commissioners and professionals responsibility. After all there are so MANY commissioners in every district(not), and I am sure the DE and SE have nothing better to do with their time, where did you pick this gem from BW?

 

The truth is the sole responsibility lies with the IH, COR, and unit committee to make sure the rules are followed, the DE and commssioners have no authority to enforce anything on a unit level, unless laws are being broken and even then all the can do is notify the authorities.

[scoutldr]

It's clear that the Scout Executive is responsible for both the administration and program delivery of the Council. He answers to the Executive Board, a group of volunteers who has the power to hire and fire him (or her). The Executive Board includes the CORs of all the units...the only unit level people who get a vote. If the SE does not perform and the Board does nothing, the consequences can range from loss of membership, financing and units to adverse publicity to legal problems. As I said in my other post, us lowly volunteer members are considered "customers" of the Council. If we don't like what's going on, we can choose not to buy the product and take our kids, donations and volunteer time elsewhere. That was a revelation for me a few years back...I who grew up in Scouting since I was 9 years old figured I was as much a part of the BSA as anyone.

 

ASM59 asks, "where do we draw the line?" The fact is the line is not ours to draw.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Bob White]

I didn't make it the Commissioner Service's responsibility, the BSA did that decades ago and if you were indeed a former DE you would have know that BadenP. It's not a secret.

 

And certainly the significance of the Wreath of Service is explained to BSA professionals early on in their training.

 

 

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Sorry Bob you are once again wrong, first point I was making is that no district has the number of commish's in place to enforce anything. Second the wreath on the position patch only signifies a position tied to council/national, nothing else. It was probably a story you heard at one of your local training sessions that has no basis in fact to make the commish's feel more important. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[ASM59]

BW,

 

You posted, "People who do not understand the relationship between operating within the rules of scouting and setting an example of good citizenship should be doing something other than scouting."

 

What you say is true, and I can agree that the person to tell these people that they do not belong in Scouting is most likely the COR if the person is in a Unit position. Or if the person you talk about is at the Council/District level I suppose the responsibility of getting the person out of Scouting is one of the Executives or the Board.

 

What about the case where you're on an outing and you see a total disregard for the rules? Do you have the right or responsibility to step in to say something?

 

Based on what I've read here from many posters, the answer is no, you do not have the right or responsibility to step in to make sure that rules are followed.

 

So for those who believe this to be the case, do you simply allow people to disregard rules on an outing? Or does it matter which rule has been violated?

 

If you see an adult tenting with his girlfriend, would you say something?

 

What about if little 11 year old Johnny is homesick and one of the adults (not a parent) invites Johnny to sleep in his tent? Maybe this is different??? Would you say something then?

 

ASM59

[evmori]

In any business or organization there are people who just should not be there.

How true! But who makes that call? In Scouting, it should be the COR since they are the ones who are to choose the leaders. But in most cases, they have little to do with the unit & it is left up to the unit volunteers to handle these things.

[hotdesk]

In my mind it should be the Committee Chairman with the support of the CO.

 

The Committee Chairman is the one who usually deals with the "adult side" of scouting in a unit!

[Bob White]

First BadenP is wrong. The wreath of service designates people who are commissioned by the BSA to uphold the programs, policies and procedures of the BSA.

 

If the wreath designated positions tied to Council/national service then it would also appear on the positions of responsibility for District Chairmen, Concil presidents, council committee members, national committee members, Council executive board members, Area and Regional Presidents, or the National President. But it doesn't. Anyone who was a professional Scouter would know that.

 

Now how are rules enforced? Usually very privately and in a very positive manner whenever possible. For instance, when a unit is violating an advancement policy, the usual approach is through the program leader to bring their attention to the problem and to guide them toward the resource or training that will put them on the right track. This is usually done by the DE or a Commissioner.

 

When this doesn't work the DE or Commissioner will notify the Committee Chair and Charter organization representative of the problem, explain that the unit leader was notified and chose not to correct the problem. They would remind the the CR and CC of the their agreement withthe BSo abide by its policies and that if the problem is not resolved it could result in the termination of the units charter with the BSA.

 

In some cases such as those involving youth protection, depending on the specific infraction and once it has been determined that the policy was indeed violated, the adult responsible wil be informed by a District or council professional or a commissioner that the the behaviour is unacceptable and that this is there first and final warning and that another infraction could result in the individuals permanent revocation of membership. This is often done in writing as a follow-up. The documentation is also given to the SE, who would be the one to actually take that step if needed.

 

But most of the time infractions are handled through positive coaching, counseling, and training. Policing is not an term that accurately represents the methods used by the professionals and volunteers of the BSA charged with helping to maintain the program standards. Observation, evaluation, and persuasion is more accurate.

 

Do Commissioners and DEs ignore some infractions? Absolutely, there are other aspects of the job that are more fun and more productive to deal with. That doesn't mean they aren't noticed and montiored to make sure they do not become hurdles to the program. Do some commissions pick on the little things and ignore the big stuff? Yes. Unfortunately when you are dealing with the number of volunteers that the BSA has you will always have some people who do the job really well and some who do it very badly.

 

Just like with unit volunteers good selection and good training will produce good volunteers.

[AlFansome]

 

ASM59, as with everything, I think the answers to your questions are "it depends".

 

IMHO, there are clearly cases where one should (or must) get involved.

 

Let's look at the case of a campout or summer camp where I'm a unit leader...

 

Any imminent safety or YP issues in particular would qualify for the "rules police". (I'm thinking things like boys being completely reckless with knives, fire or weapons (as an example) or seeing clearly inappropriate behaviour between adult and scout). I'd step in personally immediately and then follow up with the appropriate unit leader, camp staff, or council staff depending on the situation.

 

Other things that aren't an immediate safety concern would be handled differently. If a particular unit is breaking every rule under the sun at a camp (alcohol, fire restrictions, etc. for instance), I'd either have a chat directly with the unit leaders in question, or inform the camp staff ... or maybe not. If I felt that the situation might escalate into a safety issue, I'd be more inclined to get involved.

 

Still other things probably wouldn't rise to a level that I'd want to step in...things that are procedural in nature or not according to the program problems could be seen as none of my business ... or maybe not. Is my unit's experience at the camp negatively impacted by the issue or concern? If so, I may say something either during the event or to the appropriate person afterwards.

 

Sorry I can't be more precise. I think we can usually agree on if/when a rule is being broken or a policy is being violated, but how we respond to what we see depends on how we view the "severity" of the infraction.

 

 

[BadenP]

Bobby, the only ones who are directly commissioned by the BSA are the professionals and you should know that with all your so called experience. All commissioners and the like are commissioned under the authority of the SE in the local council, hardly the same thing so your now new meaning for the wreath in your last post is also incorrect. Lastly all volunteers in the BSA are commisioned to uphold the policies and rules of the BSA, you should try reading the adult application sometime, Bunky. All professional commissions are signed by the Chief Scout Executive and National staff personally in ink not a photocopy signature, whereas your commission is signed by your council SE and Council commish again hardly the same thing. Your wreath stories are both in error as is your explaination as to who enforces the rules I know it and so do you so stop with all your misinformation already.

[ASM915]

I cannot believe the apathy toward rules that has shown itself in this thread and the thread that this one was spun from. Has the liberal way of thinking that has emerged over the last 40+ years so infiltrated our society that we now show such a disregard toward rules and laws? Is the mindset now that if it does not affect me or my family that I will turn a blind eye toward what is happening or has happened because I don't want to get invovled? Isn't this a similar mindset to 1930's Europe, or more recently Rwanda and Darfur?

 

So what if a Scout gets abused by a leader, or a Venturer returns from a backcountry excursion pregnant because she was allowed to tent with the oppisite sex, maybe her fiance, as long as the broken rule doesn't affect me or my family?

 

Should we just toss the G2SS and the rules and rename the organization "The ANARCHIST SCOUTS OF AMERICA", because that is where it will end up sooner or later if we keep this present mindset.

 

LET'S GET REAL PEOPLE! So much for teaching our Scouts civic duty, moral obligations, and to stand up for what is right, whether it directly affects them or not.

 

Whose responsibility is it to police our ranks, volunteer or professional? It should be everyones reponsibility. Should inquiries into infractions be handle descreetly? Yes.

 

BW condones that volunteer infractions should be handled by the IH/IR and COR. But with a lot of CO's being a silent noninvolved partner, and how discreet a situation would be kept, is this realistic?

 

[Gold Winger]

I'm one who believes that if one considers a rule or law to be unjust that if feels strongly enough about the situation that he should make a statement by violating the rule. However, if one does that, one must be prepared to suffer the consequences.

 

For example, I would like to tote my 1911A1 on commercial flights however, I am not willing to suffer the consequences so I don't. On the other hand, I think that a 65 mph speed limit on the flat, straight interstates of the midwest is plain silly so I drive 80 because I'm willing to trade off the fine for time saved.

 

In this case, the DE felt that the rule was silly enough that he didn't need to follow it because he's engaged. However, he needs to be prepared for the consequences which should be termination.