Sleeping Arrangements

[funscout]

The DE used very poor judgement in this case. His blatant disregard for the rules will cause some parents to think twice about letting their kids remain in scouting.

 

My brother pulled his girls out of Girl Scouts for this very reason. The troop leader shared a tent with her live-in-lover on camp-outs. The troop leader saw nothing wrong with her behavior, so my brother knew that Girls Scouts was not the place for his girls to be!

[ASM59]

Neil...,

 

I am curious about your saying that the BSA is a Consensus Organization and exactly what you mean by that.

 

from Webster's Dictionary:

Consensus

1 a: general agreement : unanimity

b: the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned

2: group solidarity in sentiment and belief

 

My first reaction to the term Consensus Organization is an organization that takes a vote on everything. Meaning that if there was a disagreement over the DE sleeping with the fianc, then we should assemble and vote on whether to allow it or not. If thats the case then I would not agree.

 

However, if by a Consensus Organization you mean that there are certain standards (rules) that the BSA has adopted and that those joining the organization must be in agreement or they wouldnt have joined, then Id agree.

 

ASM59

[SR540Beaver]

OK, time for a reality check on asking marital status. I'm an ASM in a Troop with around 60 boys on the roster. I know the marital status of each and everyone of them and I've never asked a single one what their status is. When a boy registers, it is pretty apparent from the contact information submitted whether his parents are married or divorced. Since we use Mr and Mrs in our Troop, it is pretty obvious if Mr Brown and Mrs Green bring Timmy Green on campouts that Brown and Green are not married. Yes, she could be a professional who kept her maiden name, but her son would most likely be Brown instead of Green. This ain't rocket science folks. While there are some folks who drop their kids off and never darken the door, we still have some clue about their family life if we are doing our jobs of working with their kids.

[Eamonn]

I don't like setting myself up as a judge and jury.

I don't see any place in any BSA publication that it is my job to police the moral standards of others.

I know the rule.

I'm happy for myself to keep the rule.

What others do?

Really is up to them.

Eamonn.

(And of course if the thought of ever breaking the rule entered my head. Her Who Must Be Obeyed would be a very unhappy camper and would find her own way of pay-back!)

[Beavah]

When a boy registers, it is pretty apparent from the contact information submitted whether his parents are married or divorced. Since we use Mr and Mrs in our Troop, it is pretty obvious if Mr Brown and Mrs Green bring Timmy Green on campouts that Brown and Green are not married. Yes, she could be a professional who kept her maiden name, but her son would most likely be Brown instead of Green.

 

Yah, I guess we have another new application, eh? Last I checked da youth application only had one line for parent, so I'm not sure how you'd get marital status off that.

 

As for the rest, without even lookin' up folks I can name a half dozen people who don't fit SR540's guess in the units I know. Dr. Spellman (female), married to Mr. Franks (male) with son Tommy Spellman (from first marriage).

 

Goin' back a ways, scoutldr has the right of it, eh? Folks need to be careful. The Guide to Safe Scouting for Unit Activities does not apply to professionals or to council or national events. Those are governed by other things, includin' things like employment or tenant law in the several states. Dependin' on what state this is happenin' in, da SE may well be bound by the law, not BSA policy. Yeh see, the council here sure seems like it's providing a residence, one which is required to be used as a condition of employment, eh? In that case, much like a landlord, the council may have only limited control over things, eh? That is, of course, if you are interested in following the law.

 

Dat's why I reckon all the busybodies out there need to be a bit more circumspect about things, eh? It's really difficult to know what's really goin' on in any adult's life or any organizational decision.

 

A man I know and respect a great deal was once brought a woman who had been caught in a compromisin' position, violatin' a rule much worse than is obvious with this DE. When folks brought her, they were all hot to get her, because she had broken the rule. His answer was that he did not condemn her, and he challenged all those folks all hot and bothered about da rule with a straightforward challenge, eh?

 

Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

I'd never be one to advocate for sex outside of heterosexual, committed marriage, eh? (which ain't necessarily the same thing as legal marriage, of course). Some things are sinful, and sinful things hurt a person, and I don't reckon I like to see people hurt.

 

For da same reason, as a good Christian, I also don't reckon I should be pickin' up many rocks, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Lisabob]

I too can name a good many families who do not fit your rule of thumb, SR540Beaver. When you start talking blended families, families of other ethnic and cultural traditions, families where the woman didn't change her name, families where the parents did not marry but are in long term relationships, adoptions, foster parenting, etc., boy, watch out!

 

I agree that I've had less difficulty when dealing with a boy scout troop because there, people tend to stick around for a pretty long time and most have been in the same group since cub scouts. So people know each other. But with cub scouts, every year new families who don't know anybody else in the group come into the elementary school system and into the packs and sometimes, no, we really did not know the exact marital status of a kid's parents or guardians. What we did know was the kids wanted to go camping with the pack and both adults came along with them.

[ASM59]

Beavah,

 

Once again you miss the rest of the story...

 

After telling her that he did not condemn her, he told her to "go and sin no more".

 

In that simple compassionate response He was acknowledging that what she had done was wrong and He was telling her not to break the rules anymore.

 

No one is advocating stoning this DE for what he did, but I guess its too judgmental to simply point out that the rules are not being followed.

 

What good are rules if there are no checks to see that the rules are being followed?

 

ASM59

[Bob White]

No one has suggested stoning the DE's girlfriend. They are merely saying that having an unmarried couple share a cabin or tent is obviously contrary to the values put forward by the Scouting program.

This fact is obvious and undeniable.

 

What is astounding is the obvious poor judgement used by the DE and those who permitted him to share the cabin with the fiance.

 

This is not about judging someones sins, it's about questioning their decision making and their judgement. A question that this DE, and others involved answered very poorly.

 

This was not about 'can he be allowed to room with her' it was about 'should he be allowed to room with her', and according to the values and the policies of the BSA the answer should have been no.

[NeilLup]

Hello ASM59,

 

I really am more comfortable with the dictionary definition of "consensus" than I am with either of the alternatives that you suggest.

 

My contrast with a "consensus" organization would be a "leading" organization if you will. An organization like the NAACP or the Sierra Club or Right to Life which exists to push a sociopolitical agenda and which takes positions which are outside the "average" of the individuals in a community and are attempting to move the "average" values of the community.

 

In contrast, my view of Scouting is that, by and large, its values pretty well represent an average of the individuals in the community. Values like "trustworthy", "loyal", "helpful" and "friendly" are pretty non-controversial. While Scouting may try to move the values of an individual member of the community, it would be trying to move them toward values which, by and large, would be held by most members.

 

I note, for example, that in his recent interviews, Chief Scout Executive Mazzuca stated that, among other things, the BSA's gay policy would be in line with the desires of most parents.

 

I note also that when segregation was common in the US, the BSA was pretty much segregated also. There were some parts of the country in which there were separate white and black councils. The BSA's change in policy pretty much paralleled changes in attitude in the country.

 

So not a vote and not immutable values and policies. But rather policies which pretty reflect the country and the communities which Scouting serves and which change as the country and the communities change.

[Nike]

Hopefully, someone in which ever council this occurred in, has recognized the incident and called the DE on the carpet and the SE has sent out a strongly worded memo that this will not happen again.

[adamsdwa]

Hello All -

 

Longtime lurker and 1st time poster. I have watched this thread with much interest. I am from this council and know the original poster. He is a decent and honest man whom I appreciate for his contributions to Scouting. I sincerely believe he made this post to seek direction and gauge opinion on the subject.

 

There are a few things that should be noted about the DE in question.

 

He is relatively new and has made many mistakes. He has been counseled by both professionals and volunteers alike. He has been given numerous chances to learn and gain experience. Unfortunately, he has a couple things working against him. In his eagerness to serve he tries to be all things to all people which creates many more issues and creates a feeling of distrust. He has done numerous things and we could list them all - but to attack him serves no purpose. The biggest issue is that he just refuses to "get it". He doesn't have enough time to earn back the trust and respect he has lost.

 

Secondly, Council is aware and I am confident that they have addressed the issue. Each of us need to remember he is an employee and his "coaching" as an employee is protected by confidentiality laws. I have no first hand account, but I am sure that Council must be growing tired of all the complaints. This was not the only one durring this particular camp.

 

Third, this DE makes it very known that this lady is his fiance. She participates in many district activities with him. She was a paid Lifeguard working the waterfront at this event. So, technically, she too was an employee. Any communication with her would also be protected.

 

Lastly, as a leader I had numerous parents complain to me. I made our Camp Director and Program Director aware. It was handled appropriately within the Chain of Command.

 

I think there are 2 main points here:

 

1. He knows some people are out to get him and are complaining all the time. He showed extremely poor judgement by placing himself in this position. Should it be this way - NO - but if we were all in similar shoes I think we would be more careful. He is young and frankly thinks "it won't happen to me".

 

2. Our council is supportive and understanding. They are in a tough spot because it costs significant amounts of money to hire these guys and send them to all the trainings. The truly make an investment in the program each time they hire a DE. The council, and only the council, can decide at what point they must cut their losses. Our job as volunteers is to provide the boys a quality program.

 

We have rules for youth protection and the G2SS, as a leader in this organization our personal morals, values, etc. should reflect upon the culture created by the organization to which we belong. This does mean we should always agree - respectful discussion such as this is very healthy and good for all. We should, however, live and strive to attain those values and set examples for the young men we lead. This is not about 2 moms, 2 dads, unmarried parents or couples, or one DE. It's about following the rules we agree to respect and honor as a leader in the BSA.

 

Kudos srisom - great discussion - hope to see you soon!

[ASM59]

Neil...,

Thanks for your explaination, very well thought out...

 

Adams...

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the added insight. Hope to see you posting more.

 

ASM59

[Chelle]

Adams - wonderful points.

 

We are the examples for the young men around us. As a leader parents trust in me to show moral and ethical behavior to their sons. As a parent I hope and pray that other leaders in my Sons life remember that someone who is very curioous is watching what they say and do, and is learning from them. Kids know and understand a lot more than people give them credit for.

I hope things are worked out in a positive way for the boys concerning this DE.

We are here for the boys first and formost!

[SR540Beaver]

Adams, welcome to the forum and thanks for the additional insights. Like I said earlier, this isn't rocket science.

 

One of the points I have made on these forums over the years is this, Scouting didn't choose me, I chose it. When I joined, I joined with my own personal expectation of abiding by the policies and procedures of the organization. Why would I have joined if I didn't agree? I'm a Baptist. If I move churches, I'm not going to move to a Catholic church. It isn't a good fit for me. If I did join a Catholic church and decided to "act" like a Baptist and change the Catholic church to my liking, I'd be wrong. Same with Scouting. On my honor. Trustworthy. Loyal. As a Scouter, I am not free to do as I please within the confines of Scouting. I am honorbound to follow the program. Why would I be here otherwise.

[Eamonn]

Beaver,

Having just looked at your last post.

I kinda think we share very much the same values.

As I read it I couldn't help seeing the word "I" (You)!

It seems to me that you made your choices and you are happy with them.

This thread might be seen as asking two questions.

1/ Did this fellow break the rule?

The answer isn't hard - Yes he did.

The next question is a lot harder.

2/ What is going to be done?

I don't have the answer to that.

It would seem that the people who are empowered to answer it have all the information.

What happens or doesn't happen it up to them.

Back when I was a younger fellow, I choose to wait till I got married to my good wife, before we shared a tent.

While maybe my family is not exactly the Cleaver's? We for the most part are a very close loving family.

I have a few friends who are not so lucky, they seem to move from crisis to crisis. I feel sorry for them, but it is how they have chosen to live their lives.

When I read the "Rule Book" I read it with me in mind. I can't control what most other people opt to do or not do.

When I'm driving down the highway with my cruise control set at the maximum speed limit and a car goes racing past me. I do at time think what an idiot! But the truth is that I really don't know why he might be speeding down the road.

I can't do anything to stop him from speeding.

If a policeman pulls him over, he can decide if he wants to give the guy a ticket or not. That's his job.

Eamonn.