Sleeping Arrangements

[Gold Winger]

How about, "I'm sorry honey, we've been shacking up for four years now but I work for an organization that supports traditional values even though I don't."

[Liz]

I'd be willing to bet that SOME of the cubs noticed, and were confused by it.

It may be the 21st century, but I think there are a fair number of families who are still teaching values based on religious training, etc.

Personally, I would be HORRIFIED if unmarried adult leaders shared sleeping quarters on a Scout event that my boys were on. It's not as if my boys don't know this kind of stuff happens... but the idea that a couple who is supposed to be modeling self-control and leadership skills just HAS to ignore the rules and can't even control themselves for a weekend or a week on a Scout outing? If it happened in my unit, you can bet I'd be making a stink about it.

I have my boys in Scouts (at least partially) so they can have the best of the best role models active in their lives. Not so they can learn that it's ok to fudge the rules.

Every rule one sets for kids will most likely get blurred by most kids. That's why you set and model the HIGHEST standards... so when the kids "approach" the standard, they're doing pretty well. Like someone else said... this "Leader" was "almost" married because he was engaged... so next the Boy Scout is "almost" engaged because he's dating, and then the next one is "almost" dating because, darn, he was able to talk that cute venture scout into his tent, right? Lines are drawn for a reason, and once you blur them, you might as well erase them entirely.

 

-Liz

[CalicoPenn]

A question that immediately comes to my mind is "How were the Cubs to know that the couple wasn't married?" Were the couple indiscreet about the fact that they weren't married? Or were their Pack leaders indiscreet in discussing the couple's marital status in front of the boys? I know when I was that age, I would have naturally thought they were married, and only would have thought otherwise if someone had told me otherwise.

 

Calico

 

 

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Maybe the two unmarried leaders are just trying to prove they're not gay?

 

While an argument can be made that the rule is out of date, and that not every religion/culture has the same negative view of such things - that is the rule.

 

Leaders need to teach by example that the rules are to be followed. And that if you think a rule is wrong, you can try to get it changed - but you're still not free to break it.

 

Within a closed society like Scouting, there is no room for "this is wrong for you, but OK for me" interpretations.

 

NC

[Gold Winger]

"A question that immediately comes to my mind is "How were the Cubs to know that the couple wasn't married?""

 

That really doesn't matter, does it? The rule is there, he's a paid representative of BSA so he has even a stronger obligation to abide by the rules than we mere volunteers.

 

 

[MichaelOA]

"A question that immediately comes to my mind is "How were the Cubs to know that the couple wasn't married?""

 

That really doesn't matter, does it? The rule is there, he's a paid representative of BSA so he has even a stronger obligation to abide by the rules than we mere volunteers. -Gold Winger

 

Doesn't matter? Why would it matter, if no scouts noticed, or know of their martial status. It seems to me, either your such a stickler for rules that have no effect on the scouting program, or at least in this situation, or you are just attacking this man, who for all you know could be improving the scouting program greatly. So lets look at it like this.

 

*Engaged Party shares a Cabin

*Scouts most likely don't know their martial status.

The two previous events have no impact on the scouts, or the program.

 

*Someone files a report, over something so small as this.

*Active, helpful scouter is no longer part of the program.

*Program gets weaker.

The three previous events do impact the program in a negative way.

 

 

Was there any wrong/bad impact on the scouting program at all? How does this effect the scouts? Instead of putting what's in the rule book, think of the boys. They don't get any bad moral lessons since they don't know if they are married or not, or that they even did anything, their cub scouts, if sex is on their mind so much they think of that first then something else is majorly wrong. How you as adults view it is different then that of a cub scout. I really think, some rules need to be bent, and sometimes some can be bent without a negative point.

 

Hey, maybe it's just cuz I've never read the G2SS, and maybe hey I'm just a youth I don't know anything. But what I see on average from other troops locally and even from different councils, the leaders always fail to look at it from the kids point of view, or for the full benefit of the children. They go by the book 100% of the time, and they don't realized the book, is a GUIDE not to a leader. They need to lead, not go 100% by the book, the book wasn't written for every troop. To think one book, can perfectly match every situation is impossible, and if it did, this website wouldn't exist now would it.

 

There's my rant. Maybe spinning it off into some argument thread if there is one would be a better idea.

[Gold Winger]

So Michael, rules are only to be applied when convenient or if the children notice that they are being broken? What happened to "A Scout is Obedient"? I guess it should be changed to "A Scout is obedient when it is convenient or if he feels like obeying the rules."

 

So we have a "professional" who not only disregards a rule for his own convenience but then lies about it (we're engaged so it's okay).

 

" the leaders always fail to look at it from the kids point of view,"

 

There's a reason for that. As many have stated here before, kids have heads full of mush.

[Liz]

How do you suggest explaining it to the cub scouts later when they hear about or even get invited to the wedding?

And why is it that we're all assuming that the cub scouts don't know the marital status of the pair involved? I don't recall the OP ever answering that question, or did I miss it?

I would find it surprising if the cub scouts are not aware that their adult leaders are not *engaged.* That seems strange to me. And most cub scouts will have some idea that *engaged* is not *married.*

But, even IF the cub scouts are under the false assumption that the couple is married, I do not think that it lets them off the hook for not following the scout guidelines. Nobody is knocking on their doors at home to make sure that nobody's spending the night in the wrong house. But at a function where youth are present, they need to have enough self-control to sleep apart, simply because, yes, those are the rules.

I would not call for this guy's resignation, necessarily, but if it were me I would be asking the Council to talk to him and remind him that he needs to abide by the BSA rules when he is at BSA functions with BSA youth present.

-Liz

[evmori]

We as adults are to be setting the example for the boys. What kind of example does it set when a professional Scouter doesn't follow the rules?

[Narraticong]

One of the best definitions of "Trustworthy" I have ever seen is this:

 

TRUSTWORTHY MEANS DOING THE RIGHT THING WHEN NOBODY ELSE IS LOOKING.

 

You see, it is as simple as that. Yes, Scouts have an ethics base that goes back a long way. Earlier than the 1950's even. Maybe as far back as that fellow Moses? The 10 Commandments are still good "guidelines" as are the 12 Points of the Scout Law.

 

They'll do for me...

 

 

[Rythos]

Raise the issue with the SE if your that offended and whatever happens happens. We all make choices and their choice was to disregard the rules. Every choice has a consequence and he will have earned his. If the program suffers due to the loss of an active professional Scouter you will have realized the consequence of your choice.

 

Ry

 

(edited to inset a missed word)(This message has been edited by Rythos)

[Narraticong]

The man being referred to was not a "Scouter", but a District Executive. There is often a very big difference between volunteers and professionals. Most long term, well trained volunteers are committed to the ideals of Scouting. They are the ones who understand why this was wrong even if the boys did not notice.

 

On the other hand the committment of professionals to the ideals of Scouting is sometimes questionable. Many work for BSA because they want a career working with kids or with non-profit organizations. BSA is often no more than a career stop. Many I have seen lately have no background in Scouting whatsoever. If we have been lucky and diligent, our young DE will begin to understand and accept our ideals.

 

Just as boys have to learn the ways of Scouting, so do our young DE's. That's where those of us volunteers who do "get it" can help them. Don't run to his boss complaining. Buy him a cup of coffee and sit down with the Scout Handbook and explain things. If he's smart and the right guy for your District, he'll thank you. If not, he'll hopefully be moving on soon enough.

[Mr. Boyce]

The DE showed very bad form, and scouters should not do this either.

[Nike]

The DE was wrong, and if parents or Scouters want to bring it up quietly to the SE, they should. I wouldn't fire the guy this time, but I would NEXT time. If, however, this has been going on for a while between the couple AND council knows about it, there are bigger fish to fry.

 

As for the fiancee, what did she do while she was there? Was she being actively recruited as a Scouter?

 

[Nike]

Whoa! This just hit me. How does anyone know they AREN'T married? (In CA you can file an essentially sealed marriage certificate.) They could be married but not ready to tell certain family members. Not everyone has a fairytale wedding.