How to Regain Program Focus

[BrotherhoodWWW]

A year ago our troop switched from adult led and run to youth led. The SM either lacks training or does not by into the "Program" the way myself and some of the ASM's think he should. recently the PLC planned our schedule for the upcomming year. Included was a movie night in place of a regular meeting once monthly. The SM agreed to this. When the youth leaders were asked if they had submitted their plan to the committee prior to releasing the details they not only said no but also said that they did not need to do that.

 

It seems to me as CC that these youth need a fair bit more guiding and training. It seems that the SM needs more training and guidence.

 

I'm looking for advice on how to best deal with this to bring things back on track.

[John-in-KC]

As a former CC, I would not expect the SPL to bring this to the Committee for any sort of concurrence. He may report the program, but the gatekeeper is the Scoutmaster. Did you, as CC, integrate the Committee schedule so it dovtailed with the PLC annual planning meeting? Responsibility for coordination is a two-way street.

 

It sounds to me like your Scoutmaster is the weak link. It's time for you, the COR, and he to go offsite, outside the regular meeting time, and have a quiet cup of coffee and a heart-to-heart talk.

 

If the kids have legit reasons for movies, and have selected titles that support various program elements, that's one thing. If this is an excuse to see Terminator 10,000, that's another thing.

 

Your SM needs to be told in no uncertain terms one of his conditions of service is being trained.

 

Where are your COR and UC in all this??

[Stosh]

1) Sounds like the CC wishes to run/micro-manage the troop. I don't think a boy-led program will work if the adults wish to control the program.

 

2) SM is responsible for working with the boys. If CC and ASM's wish to run it, they need to dump the SM and go back to adult-led.

 

3) Training is not the issue. A definition of what boy-led means is.

 

4) Adult approval of boy-led program is an oxymoron.

 

5) Maybe some discussions with the SM rather than bypassing him with discussions with the ASM's would be a more effective and honest approach to the issue.

 

6) Are the adults ready to disrupt this whole "new" program just because of movie night? Outdoors? Campfire popcorn? Laptop projector and a sheet should do the trick. Sounds like fun. I'd pick "Follow Me Boys" for the first option, then maybe some animal documentaries, etc. Of course if one is going to blow off movie night without anything more than a cursorary glance, maybe one ought to go back to adult-led, sounds like the adults are just looking for an excuse anyway.

 

It appears to me like some of the adults wish to regain program control, not focus.

 

Sorry, I always side with the boys and then work from there. That's what trusting in a boy-led program requires in the first place.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Bob White]

By jblake's definition if the boys chose to go to the movies ech week and do nothing else that would be just fine as long as it was the boys decision.

 

What he neglects to admit is that would not be a Scout program just because the Scouts were making the decisions.

 

Youth leadership and patrol methods are just some of the elements used to achieve the Aims and Mission of Scouting, but for them to have any values the unit program must be moving toward accomplishing the Aims and Mission.

 

Which is why Scouting has adult leaders, and why Boy Scouting has adults and youth as leaders. The adults lead the program, the youth lead troop and patrol activities...Its been that way since B-P began the program, even he trained adult leaders.

 

Both you and the Scoutmaster need training. Neither of you have a firm grip on what your responsibilities are, or how they interact nad training would benfit both of you.

 

For instance there should have been comunication and an agreed upon plan for how the annual program plan would procedd before the PLC met to begin the process.

 

Ultimately it is for you and the CR to determine if the troop is following the program and meeting the goals of the CO and the BSA. Then you need to determine whatever steps will be taken to either improve or maintain the current unit program.

 

Certainly being able to clearly and effectively explain the needs of the CO to the Scoutmaster, and to be able to give him specific goals to be accomplishedand the tools to achieve those goals is a big part of what the CC and CR do in a troop.

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

"By jblake's definition if the boys chose to go to the movies ech week and do nothing else that would be just fine as long as it was the boys decision.

 

What he neglects to admit is that would not be a Scout program just because the Scouts were making the decisions." - BW

 

And what is omitted in this drive-by sweeping unproductive deduction neglects to admit is that I said no such thing. Feel free to quote me. In order to be taken seriously, one has to give at least a modicum of effort to indicte that one actually reads the various comments in a posting.

 

Even by one's own admission: "Which is why Scouting has adult leaders, and why Boy Scouting has adults and youth as leaders. The adults lead the program, the youth lead troop and patrol activities...Its been that way since B-P began the program, even he trained adult leaders." if the adults are responsible for the program, surely one can easily determine by simple logical deduction that movie night is an activity.

 

Speaking in sweeping generalities may show some sort of dramatic emphasis on a point to show one's prowess in the program: "By jblake's definition if the boys chose to go to the movies ech week and do nothing else that would be just fine as long as it was the boys decision." when in fact the subject was more in line with: "Included was a movie night in place of a regular meeting once monthly."

 

I do believe that there was some forum discussion on what good movies might be available to the various merit badge programs? But of course if one was running the program being suggested as appropriate to BSA, that MB could never be taught. (How's that for a sweepingly stupid logical conclusion?)

 

Had the CC taken the time to discuss this with the SM maybe the long term goal of the SM was to use Movie Night as the opening needed to get on the same level with the boys so as to guide the program more in line with the goals of Scouting. After all, it was I that suggested "Follow Me Boys" as a movie for the boys to consider. Duh?!! Maybe some discussion following? Surely the boy's interest in scouting could be drawn in to a more productive activity with a good moderator in on that discussion group. Oops, but of course, that type of activity is not in any BSA literature so it surely has no value in the programs of the BSA.

 

Could one assume that this SM has the skills of a teacher who could facilitate such a discussion? Surely that IS a skill taught to promising young teachers. But alas, unless it is taught by the inert wisdom of BSA, I'm assuming it is of no real lasting value.

 

As I alluded to before, maybe a face-to-face with the SM would be a more honest approach so as to determine what he is actually trying to accomplish with the boys instead of sitting around with the ASM's thinking up ways to undermine the SM and the new boy-led approach.

 

Stosh

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Jblake writes "... surely one can easily determine by simple logical deduction that movie night is an activity."

 

 

there is a difference between being an activity and being an appropriate activity. The role of the Scoutmaster is to guide the scouts into appropriate activities that will achieve the Aims and Missions of the Scouting program.

 

Jblake raise boy-led to mean that anything the boys want to do. That is not Scout leadership that is abdication of leadership.

 

Going to a movie does not need to be done on a troop meeting night and can just as easily be done on another night or as a pstrol activity. Since they will be sitting ina dark room unable to interact with each other what does it matter if they go as a troop or not.

 

Troop meetings have a purposeand it will take take trained adults who actually understand the program to realize that and help the scouts make More appropriate decisions.

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, before this becomes another thread about BobWhite, let's go back to the original question.

 

Except I don't understand the original question.

 

Brotherhood, are yeh suggesting that the SM should have vetoed the PLC decision made durin' the annual planning meeting? That doesn't seem to match your youth led comment.

 

Or do I have that backward and the SM pushed the boys into having movie nights when the boy leaders didn't want to (perhaps so they could fulfill some of the requirements for MBs that use movies)?

 

Or is the issue that the SM didn't bring the annual plan to da committee for approval before they published it?

 

Or is there somethin' else goin' on? Seems like yeh have some issues with the SM that you aren't sharin'. Is he/she new to the job? What are those issues?

 

Just movie nights once a month, especially movies that tie into scoutin', doesn't seem like a hill for anybody to die on, eh? Or even shout about too much. Just depends what's goin' on in the troop in other ways overall.

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

There's a ton of good scout related "movies" out there. There's one on canoeing that is especially good. I'm sure with a little research one can come up with 12 good movies for the boys to watch that would go a long way to justify a big bowl of Trails End and some Koolaid. A little Philmont trailer mixed in might be just the ticket as well. If there's a council camp promo or Jamboree promo that could work too. As I alluded to: with a car battery and laptop and projector, one could even take the show on the road for the boys as well.

 

The more I think about it, the more I kinda like the idea. It might be the one "electronic" outlet that might work with the boys.

 

I'm sure that if one doesn't trust their boys' and their judgment, I'm sure the spector of stag films may haunt a few of those out there. :^)

 

Stosh

[BrotherhoodWWW]

Why do I even bother to waste my time with this forum!

 

Jblake perhaps next time you can leave the personal attacks and assumptions out of your answer. The point I see you trying to make is that boy run = boy led. I see the two as very different things as does Bob White. It is up to the adult leaders to set boundries as to what is the program. The SM is responsible to implement the program, the youth lead the program. The youth should have abundant input into the particulars of the program such as where to go camping and what activities each patrol does.

 

Bob White you would do well to also stop the assumptions. There are very few in my district that have been to as much training as myself. I have a very firm grasp of what my duties are as the CC and what the SM's duties are. Our unit does not fit the "ideal model" of BSA Troop origanzationl charts and I am not the one at fault! I'm the one most trying to steer our unit in that direction. Once I get beyond your condecention I really do not see what you have added to be helpful to my situation.

 

John thanks so much for the valuable feedback! Our COR is not involved much to my dislike. I wish our CO would take a serious interest in their troop but they have yet to do so. In our area of the district two of the commissioner staff are directly involved in my unit and we are one of the units without a UC. I wish I had one to fall back on.

 

Beavah, thanks to you also for the valuable feedback! Yes I think the SM should have steered the boys away from a movie night in leu of a regular meeting. Once in a while I think it is a great idea. Our Scouts lack basic Scout skills. i.e. knots, fire building, orienteering, map reading. They also are rather poor when it comes to the Uniform method. In the past year most young boys have not had the opportunity to advance T-2-1. Camp menu planning needs work. Duty rosters are not used. Our QM does the shopping for the whole troop for outings. On outings we switch to Troop method. Attendence to weekend outings is poor IMHO.

 

I agree that most times it is best to allow youth to fail if that is the plan they set up. I do not agree to my son being involved in a troop that right out of the gate loses 25% of the potential of a Scouting program. I've scheduled a Parents meeting and am not comfortable with asking other parents to jump on board and support their youth involvement in the troop. I think the PLC with the advice of the SM and ASM's are able to come up witha better schedule than a movie meeting once each month. Watching movies just does not seem to be a Scout Skill, although it is a great past time and there are some movies that would have value.

 

A few more random thoughts: Our latest Eagle Scout has never been on a back packing trip, he has hiked in a mile or so but I don't think of that as back packing and neither does he. A life scout PL had to ask "what's a ground cloth?" when we discussed what he needed to bring to his Ordeal. I think there is far more scouting that these boys need before they consider watching movies.

 

Perhaps I should have mentioned all this in the OP so folks had a bit of background. BTW the training the SM really needs is IOLS. He is real poor when it comes to Scout Skills.

[Beavah]

Yah, OK Brotherhood. That helps a lot, eh?

 

From where I'm sittin', your last "By the way..." sentence is the most important of all, even though yeh put it in as an afterthought. I've never seen a Scouter who was not comfortable and confident in his outdoor skills run a strong outdoor program. That's just human nature, eh? Leaders, whether youth or adult, tend to pull things toward the areas where they have the most comfort and skills. Show me a Scoutmaster who is a strong and capable backpacker and I'll wager dollars to dumplings that will be a troop that does a lot of backpackin'.

 

So if you're interested in developin' outdoor skills in the scouts, yeh need to find adults who are truly proficient in outdoor skills. Same as anything. If yeh wanted your son to learn computers, you wouldn't send him to a guy whose only experience was a one-weekend Intro to Computers course. So if that's where the Committee wants to take it (and that's more or less the mission of da silent CO), yeh either need a new SM, or yeh need to be willing to finance some assistance in outdoor skills from outside consultants (like what is taught in Venturing/Powder Horn), or yeh need a SM who is really a lifelong learner who wants to put in the time to really learn that stuff - and then support him/her with a lot of training, practice, and such. Send him to LNT trainer, send him on a few trips with the local community college outdoor program, encourage some moderately challenging "adults only" weekend trips.

 

IMO, though, you're just not goin' to get where you want to be until the adults in your program are personally proficient in the kinds of things yeh want to see the boys doin'. That's probably goin' to take a while, so come at this with a longer view toward gradual improvement. Be careful that yeh don't die on any small hills at the start.

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

If a person has already made up their mind, is of a single opinion, and really doesn't want to hear any differing points of view, only reinforcement of their own, then maybe they ought to find feedback from places other than an open forum where one risks the possibility of differing opinions.

 

Please feel free to point out the "personal attacks". I very carefully speak in the 3rd person, quote others only when they are misquoting me. I generally find it a good policy to try and remember my mom's bit of advice: Big people talk about ideas, average people talk about things, and little people talk about other people. While I sometimes fail at this, I do try and make an effort.

 

While I do not run a truly Kosher BSA program, I haven't deviated far enough to be deemed sinister or evil (my DE, however, rolls his eyes when he sees me coming with a question) but my boys love it, are excited about it, prefer it and my retention rate is right up there with the best. We are doing a lot more than before my numbers have grown from 5-6 to 20, we have boys that joined up last winter that are now sitting in on SM conferences and BOR's for FC, and we anticipate 30 more this winter after Webelos cross-overs. Now, I may be full of "crap" when it comes to advice, but dang, it sure seems to be working for my boys.

 

I took the focus of a dying troop and turned it into a boy-led, patrol-method, adult-supported program in less than 1 year. I developed an adult corps of leaders that are all on the same page and work well at supporting the boys and staying out of their way.

 

I don't have to worry about my CC and ASM's talking behind my back because we are in constant communication on the merits of the program. I don't have to worry about parents interferring (which they have at times) the CC, Committee and ASM's gently usher them out of the way.

 

If there is nothing I can provide to another person's situation, fine, put me on "Ignore" and let's move on with life.

 

Oops, almost forgot:

 

Boy-led and Boy-run are two different issues? Yep, and what it boils down to is the boy-led program expects the responsibility of execution to be done by the boys, but no authority to determine what the program is to be. This group dynamic is a formula for guaranteed failure. It provides 0% ownership on the part of the boys. To give a person responsibility with no authority to follow through will never work unless one is trying to produce human robots with no leadership skills. True leadership is both responsibility and authority. If a boy has the responsibility to do an Eagle project and has no authority to start, he's pretty much dead in the water isn't he. But alas, some adult will soon step in and grant permission (authority) to do so. Never could figure out how that dynamic can be defined as boy-led leadership.

 

Stosh

 

(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Twocubdad]

I'm with Bob on this one.

 

Boy led does not equal adult abandoned. Adult association and Youth Leadership are co-equal methods of Scouting, no?

 

It is the job of the adults to coach, mentor, guide, steer, direct, nudge, push, pull or finagle the Scouts into making the right choices. If you can't figure out how to guide the boys into making good decisions and leave them feeling like it was their decision, you're in the wrong business.

 

Personally, I think movies once a month is a bad idea. It's not part of the program and monthly is devoting far, far too much time. Once or twice a year? Okay.

 

From a practical standpoint, I'll tell you showing movies is a pain. We do movie night once a year, but it comes at the end of a day-long troop junior leader training and is clearly a perk for the Scouts who complete the course. It's not the program, it's what we do when the program is concluded. Selecting movies is a constant tug of war. The boys aren't going to sit through Follow Me Boys or your canoeing movie. You need to be prepared to preview every movie. Good luck trying to find a PG or better film the guys will want to watch. And you definitely don't want to count on PG-13 as being Scout appropriate.

 

I will hold out the possibility that the SM in the original post is setting up a controlled failure situation. After a couple nights of appropriate Scout-like movies, the boys may decide movie night isn't working out as they had planned.

 

Stosh -- your boy led vs. boy run break down is interesting and has some merit when you're looking in the micro view. But from the overall view, I don't think it holds up. The Scout program is already proscribe to us by the BSA. The boys need to understand that while they have great lattitude in determining what they want to do, they still have to operate within the limits and context of the Scouting program.

 

I have Scouts who would turn our troop into a sports league. I've tried to tell them that sports can have a place in the program within a Scouting context (patrol competitions, Sports or Athletics MB, etc.) These guys' idea is to show up every week and play soccer for 90 minutes. We're a Scout troop. We do Scouting.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[BrotherhoodWWW]

Jblake writes " Maybe some discussions with the SM rather than bypassing him with discussions with the ASM's would be a more effective and honest approach to the issue."

 

Stosh this seems rather pointed and assumptive on your part, if not an out right challenge of my character! I did in fact discuss this plan with the SM. Not all members are present at all meetings or planning sessions. Communication with the other adults just happens to be one of my strong abilities. It seems to me that the adults in my unit need to be united in our support of the program. Making sure everyone is on the same page seems part of this. When we have a situation where there is disagreement I believe that it is best to work to resolve the disagreement.

[NJCubScouter]

I think the important thing is to maintain a balance, both as to the content of the program and how decisions are made about the program.

 

Twice a year, our troop has a pizza party at a troop meeting (the last meeting before Christmas and the last meeting of the school year in June.) I think that's fine, but if anyone proposed a pizza party every month, that wouldn't be fine. If someone proposed a movie night, I wouldn't have a problem with that -- once a year, not once a month. Or a game night, where the kids bring board games, which we have had in some years. Or a hobby night or collections night like we used to have in Cub Scouts. Once a year, and notice it's "or", not "and." Where are these things in the Scout Handbook? How about "a Scout is a brother to his fellow Scouts." Friendship and team spirit among the Scouts can be promoted by the occasional social activity or fun activity that doesn't match up with the advancement requirements, but it can't overwhelm the "program".

 

The same is true with "boy run" vs. "boy led". I think that if things are handled correctly, the distinction never really comes up. Again, balance is the key. In our troop, the boys meet to "plan" the activities for the year, but they know and we know that what they are actually doing is proposing a list of activities, and that if they "go too far" their plan will be substantially altered by the committee. They rarely do go too far, because the older boys know roughly what the expectations are. They have at least a vague sense of what the Guide to Safe Scouting prohibits (i.e. paintball) and if during their planning meeting they "forget", the SM is there to remind them. They know that excessive "social activities" (see above) will be rejected, so they don't propose them. They know that if they propose one or two trips a year that are (say) 200 or 300 miles away, the adults will do their best to make it happen, but if they propose 10 such trips a year, it isn't going to happen. The same goes with trips that have a significant admission fee (I'm talking about $40 and up, per person, like a camping trip on one of the retired battleships, or a football game at one of the military academies on "Scout Weekend); one or two a year, we'll see what we can do, more than that, forget it.

 

If you make sure that the expectations are clearly understood, all that is necessary after the boys have their meeting is a little tinkering by the activities chair in consultation with the other committee members and the SM, and you have your plan for the year -- without the issue of "who is making the decisions" ever really coming up.

[croushorn]

And Im with Twocubdad here. Your experiences and views in these areas very closely reflect mine: I hate movie night!

 

Brotherhood: I think you have named many of the solutions yourself these are simple issues to resolve. Not so sure you have any real obstacles in front of you that some open minds cant work through. One that pops into my head you said your QM does the shopping why? You can stop that this week. I would suggest you all set up a simple training at your next PLC that surely any of your adult leaders can provide: how a patrol operates on a campout and go over the menu selection, the grubmaster duties, patrol quartermaster duties, duty rosters, etc One of my type-A ASMs created templates the PL and his Scribe are responsible for filling out the week prior to campouts; and the ASPL/SPL must approve them. These arent difficult concepts. Based upon your other posts, I can see that youre an experienced guy and been through much of this stuff, dont be afraid to offer help to your SM in areas where you see he is lacking. He just may not see that it is necessary. I love getting feedback from someone that sees something like this that I just may not recognize. Relatively, that is an easy one to work on!

 

Not that it may be your case, but it always amazes me that parents and others sometimes give us (SM) waaay to much credit (or the other extreme no credit at all!). I cant be everything in the scouting program, no way. I have a life. As was said, your troops focus is usually where your leaders specialties lie. We used to be a real strong canoeing troop as our SM was into it big time. So we were kick butt canoers, but not all that great at the patrol method and youth leadership. His JLT training was non-existent. Under my tenure, I see more of a big picture and focus on leadership development as I really believe those that have such skills will greatly benefit in this game called life. And while I really love canoeing, it wont necessarily help me function better in my professional or home life. Admittedly I am not the best at lashings or orienteering, that is ok I know where to get resources such as other adult leaders or specialty clubs to help in those areas. I dont want or need to be a master of all.

 

So putting aside the philosophical and personality differences in the responses posted, I think youve gotten some pretty decent direction from some guys that have actually been down this road. Your SM needs to find his own way and grow with his leadership, but theres no point in reinventing the wheel just so you can say you did so. At least pointing them in the right direction is sometimes necessary to keep them from giving up and also contributes to their growing relationship with adults. Have fun and get involved!