troop committee changes

[BadenP]

Just for the record Bobby this is at my current council where I am a volunteer not the council where I was employed as a DE, but guess what it was the same at that council as well. So maybe it is your council that is incorrect, but I am willing to bet if you asked your SE he would say the same thing as myself. It must be hard not being perfect all the time BW, lol.

[Rythos]

I've heard if that if it was even proven that BW is not perfect it would open a gate to the Astral Plane, sucking in every creature in a ten foot radius, and destroying both the Scouter.com and the Scouting Program.

 

And if you know where that came from your my kind of Scouter

 

Rythos

[Bob White]

Since when did I become the topic of the thread, and what exactly did I ever say to or about you or any of your posts Rhythos that would cause to to join in the sophomoric feeding frensy of personal attacks toward me?

[OldGreyEagle]

I am not sure how a Dungeons and Dragons reference helps, but hey, its your post.

 

Can we focus on the topic at hand and not BobWhites style? I dont always appreciate how he puts things but then there are a lot of people on the forum whose style I dont always appreciate. The topic at hand is how to help Lynn07

[BobS]

Lynn,

Your question and the various responses brought back a lot of memories for me, mostly unpleasant. I'm a Wood Badge trained Scoutmaster (Antelope C-19-01) and have been Scoutmaster for the last 7 years. I've lived through almost every one of the scenarios described in these postings:

Committee Chair attempting to "fire" the Scoutmaster and Incoming Scoutmaster (me).

Parents looking to replace the Committee Chair.

Committee Chair trying to run the program by telling me what/how to do things.

Absent Charter Organization.

 

We've had a mass exodus of older youth and involved parents from one of these issues, which meant we needed to start over - and paid the price for that.

 

My observation and advice is similar to one of the other posts:

- First of all remember why we are all doing this - For The Boys. Most of our problems occurred because some adults (parents) lost focus and were doing things for their own benefit.

- Secondly - follow the Scout Law. Of all the issues that we've had with these topics the one that was handled the best was when one of the parents approached the Committee Chair as a friend and gently told them that they thought it was time for them to move on - that he wanted the job because he thought he could help make things better. No tears, no wailing, no accusations and most importantly, the transition happened without affecting the Scouts. Both parents are still involved with the Troop, no Scouts left and the committee is re-energized.

 

In other words, handle the whole situation in a "Scout-Like" manner - you can't lose.

 

Bob

[Aquila calva]

Thanks, BobS, for your words of wisdom, spoken from experience. And welcome to the forums.

 

...Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind ...

[Bob White]

It would indeed be nice if all adults would do that, unfortunately that is not always the case. That is why "obedient" is another part of the law to keep in mind. Rather than dong what one person or another says is right, just follow the rules.

 

Rules and procedures are great equalizers. They help bring structure to situations such as this, and they keep the decision making from being based on personal opinion and instead allows everyone to follow a single objective source of authority and expertise.

 

In a Scoutng situation, that authority is the policies and procedures of the BSA programs.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

In a Scouting situation, that authority is the policies and procedures of the BSA programs.

 

Yah, incorrect again, eh?

 

In a unit scouting situation, the primary authority is the policies and procedures of the Chartered Organization, since they are the party legally responsible for the actions of their Scouting volunteers.

 

But yeh knew that, I expect.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Beavah, I do not understand why you cannot discuss something without needing to twist other peoples words around.

 

This is not a problem caused by the adults in the troop not understanding the program of the charter organization. This is about the adults not understanding how the scouting program is structured.

 

Lynns questions is Do troop committee's hold an election every year and get to vote for the person that they feel would be the best for the position? asks the wrong question. What other units do is not important. What other units whose program quality is unknown to you is even more unimportant.

 

Whats important Is what troops should do in order to deliver a quality Scouting program. The closer you follow the BSA program the better the program you will have, Nowhere does the BSA program recommend or support parents electing ANY committee position. If they did where is the evidence. We kind find in several references where the committee members are selected, approved, and assigned responsibilities by the IH the CR and the CC.

 

The parents of the Scouts are not given the responsibility or authority to select or approve ANY adult member of the unit by any element of the BSA program. Thats no accident. The parents are the consumers of the program, not the owners of it. As consumers they are welcome to give feedback on their likes and dislikes, but it is not their unit to control.

 

They have the powers of a consumer. If they do not like the product they can choice to use another. But as the consumer they do not get to choose the employees or assign them duties. The unit is owned and operated by the Charter Organization, not the parents.

 

This should not be about operating the unit Beavahs way, or Lynns way, or my way. It should be about following the Scouting program. And the program does not support the election of committee members.

 

If anyone can find any BSA reference that supports electing committee members then I urge them to produce it. Otherwise I urge Lynn to encourage the adults in the troop to learn and follow the BSA program.

 

[Beavah]

There was no twistin' there, BobWhite, and sayin' so is just bein' petulant. You know as well as I do that unit scouters are volunteers and agents for da Chartered Organization, not the BSA. Their duty of "obedience", as you put it, is to the CO. That is a proper understandin' of the BSA program.

 

Now, to address twisting. Nowhere in this thread has anyone talked about positions being elected by the parents, eh? That's you twistin' the conversation. We were talkin' about unit committees and subcommittees of various sorts, which as you know in a proper BSA program consist of individuals selected for their expertise and broader experience from more than just the parent community, and/or from a subset of the parent community. Yeh twisted it to parents/consumers to make your own unrelated point, eh?

 

Individual CO's can of course set their own expectations, and don't need to buy into the (sometimes unfortunate) BSA view of parents as "consumers." Some religious CO's, for example, place a great deal of emphasis on the primary role of da parents in the education of their children, and may mandate parent involvement in governance; PTO chartering orgs may also place a greater emphasis on parent involvement. That can work well, or poorly, dependin' on the situation - but it is aligned with their goals and values and supported by the BSA. For such CO's, it would be improper to think of parents as "consumers", more like "collaborators" or "partners", eh? That can be a nicer way of thinkin' about parents, IMO.

 

If anyone can find any BSA reference that supports electing committee members then I urge them to produce it.

 

Yah, this style of approach gets old too, eh? If yeh have any BSA references that prohibit votin', then I urge yeh to produce 'em. But you can't, because as we've demonstrated through this entire thread, the BSA materials do not specify the details of committee operations, which are left to the Chartered Organization. Where the BSA does suggest a method for selectin' committee members like the CC, it involves a committee nominatin', screening, ranking, and selecting individuals, who are then approved by the CR/IH.

 

In rankin' and selecting people, the committee has to make a decision somehow, eh? Votin' seems like a reasonable choice that's well understood. Workin' harder for consensus is often good. I suppose they could roll dice, but that doesn't strike me as bein' all that effective.

 

The only thing that is not supported by da BSA program materials is your continued reference to the CC being individually responsible for selecting/appointing/approving, rather than just bein' a leader of the group that selects/appoints/approves. While a Chartered Org. can set up a CC in that way (by makin' the CR the CC), that isn't very common. If da CC is not the CR, such a setup is not obedient to what you call the "BSA program."

 

And I agree, eh? If yeh set up a CC like that, you're more likely to get substandard results over time.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Whether the parents or the committee or the sub committees is of no matter. Nowhere does the program instruct or support the conmmitee members being elected. If it does then share with us where you find it.

 

The committee is selected and approved by two of three people, and nothing in the BSA program says anything else. While the committee or others can "suggest" whatever they want they have no authority. Only the IH CR and CC do.

 

While I understand you "feel" differently you have no evidence that the BSA program says anything different that what I have posted.

 

Lynn's unit would serve the scouts best by learning what the BSA supports and following that rather than the hearsay of other units whose success and quality of program are totally unkown to them.

 

Why any scout leader would object to having units follow the Scouting program is a mystery.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah]

Nowhere does the program instruct or support the conmmitee members being elected. If it does then share with us where you find it.

 

Nowhere does the program instruct or support a notion that the committee members should not be voted on by whatever committee is doin' the selecting. If it does then share with us where you find it.

 

The committee is selected and approved by two of three people, and nothing in the BSA program says anything else.

 

Incorrect. All of the BSA materials indicate that positions like the committee chair are screened and selected by the committee or by a steering committee chosen by the CR. The Supplementary Module on selecting leaders and committee members is quite explicit in making this a committee role, not an individual one. Approving the selection is done by one of two people - the IH or the CR.

 

While the committee or others can "suggest" whatever they want they have no authority. Only the IH CR and CC do.

 

Incorrect. The CC does not have the authority to select or approve of any position on his/her own in the BSA system. Why yeh persist in instructin' units not to follow the Scouting program is a mystery, eh? I can only assume that at present or in the recent past you were one of those CC's (perhaps like lynn07's or vcrew66's) who didn't properly understand his job description and thought he should be "president" or "king", even though that's not the BSA program.

 

Since only the IH or CR have individual authority (subject to the internal governance rules of the CO), they can set up any system for selection of leaders that they want, eh? But if they follow the BSA's recommendations, they will use a committee for that purpose.

 

But yeh know that already, eh? Because I know you've read the materials. So now you're just bein' stubborn.

 

Lynn's unit would serve the scouts best by learning what the BSA supports and following that rather than the hearsay of other units whose success and quality of program are totally unkown to them.

 

Yah, well, here I agree, eh? Which is why we're all takin' the time to offer a different perspective to the non-BSA system you seem to feel you like better.

 

Nuthin' necessarily wrong with your system, mind. I've seen a few OK units run with a strong CC who was very collaborative. But if yeh get an uncollaborative CC in such a system IMO it's a recipe for conflict and a weak program. Yeh might have had that experience, given your deep-seated feelings on the matter?

 

Practically speakin', most unit committees run more collaboratively, with a more friendly and open attitude toward parents. Whether by consensus or vote, they proceed through their business in some reasonable sort of "friendly parliamentary" fashion. If you've had some poor experiences with da CC as president over parent consumers way of lookin' at things, yeh might consider a more collaborative approach in the future. That, I reckon, would be more consistent with da BSA's new Parent Initiative, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutingInMyBlood]

BobWhite, I appreciate your technical explanation of what Scouting rules allows but lets be real for just a minute. You're in the midwest where Scouting probably thrives a bit more than here in the Northeast where we struggle to find boys, we struggle to find sponsors and we struggle to fundraise. Many unit sponsors here have absolutely no interest in being anything other than a place to meet. They do not support us financially and they do not oversee us unless we have a problem. Quite frankly, they don't want to get invovled with another group of adults if they don't have to.

 

So we have a habit of forming a committee and ELECTING a Committee Chair, Treasurer, Secretary, Advancement Coordinator, Transportation Coordinator & Equipment Coordinator as well as Scoutmaster. The chartered rep is simply one of us who belongs to the organization such as a church sponsoring us. Fortunately in our case we all get along and everyone seems to enjoy their role - nonetheless we re-vote each year and if anyone has interest they simply need to step up and say I'd like to be considered. It hasn't happened yet, usually the opposite where someone will indicate they are tired of doing a job and we let folks know we're looking for a replacement.

 

If Lynn has a Troop in need of change the best hope is to have someone close to the person they want out softly approach and ask if they are ready to let someone else lead. You'd be surprised how effective that can be as the person you are asking usually thinks no one else wants the job. That person might also mention if they need to that folks want a change - lets face it, if it's not addressed then guess what - you suddenly have 2 troops because of a split and that is never good. Trust me I know. I've been in scouting as an adult volunteer for about 14 years as Web Leader, Cubmaster, Committee Chair, Scoutmaster and many other roles and have seen this time and time again. It is better to have a friendly conversation than to bring this up at committe but sometimes you come to a point where you must make change or lose boys & parents. By the way voting publicly forces everyone to say what their decision is and while its unpleasant once in a while there asre no surprises later.

 

Lynn Good luck and looking forward to those brownies if the glass doesn't explode next time!

[Bob White]

ScoutingInMyBlood,

Think about this. The Scout uniforf doesn't chage with the region you live in , The advancment program doesn't change with the region, the Aims and Methods of Scouting doesn't change with the region. The the raining and resources of the BSa do not change with the region.

 

Why in the world would the administration of the troop committee change? I'm sorry but just because you have made this a habit, doesn't make it right, it just means that what you do you do a lot.

 

I agree with some of what you say in your last paragraph certainly asking someone to step down is one way to open the position up. But that isn't what lynn was suggesting. Her group wants to elect the members and that is not the committees role, nor is it the supported by the BSA procedures.

 

As contrary as Beavah is about this you will notice he has been unable to show anything in the BSA that supports electing committee members, thats because the BSA doesn't support it.

 

Lynns solution is not going to be found in elections. Her solution is going to be found in getting closer to the BSA program, not further away.

 

If the IH, CR, and CC are happy with the program and are not violating BSA policies, then it is not the role of the committee to change that.

 

BW

[croushorn]

ScoutingInMyBlood, welcome to the forum.

You face the same issues we do here in the Midwest. One size doesn't fit all. We all do the best we can to keep things going and keep the program flourishing. Life, and Scouting, isn't all textbook, those that actually try and live it once in a while understand that. But there's obviously folks that have lost touch with that or fail to realize they are in a very unique situation. So when they hear the horror stories from us out here in the hinterlands, it must be impossible for them to comprehend what we have to do to keep things going. I can't think of any of reason why people are this way.