Scouting Urban Legends Redux

[gwd-scouter]

Bob White's urban legend listing reminded me of a conversation I had with my sons. They had come home last weekend from summer camp and younger son had a new knife. Very nice Boy Scout knife, but quite a bit larger than his usual knife. Older son was admiring it and said, well at least it's not a fixed blade knife, you can't have those.

 

I asked him why? He said, "it's a BSA rule." I asked him where he read that. He, of course, couldn't say, merely that is what he had been taught all the years he was a Boy Scout. I told him it was another of those urban myths like many of the others he was taught as a Scout. We got to laughing when younger son said, "well I guess the knives we use for cooking on campouts are fixed blade, for that matter so is a butter knife."

 

At least in our area, since our council summer camp prohibits the use of fixed blade knives, everyone assumes that it is a BSA rule.

 

Older son is 21, an ASM in our Troop and has been to training. Yet, during his training sessions, that "rule" and others were floating around. Heck, even our District Training Chairman is known to pass along some of those legends as rules and most folks just follow along.

[eisely]

This particular urban legend is one that I heard, and accepted as correct for a long time, when I first became re involved in scouting as an adult volunteer.

 

Another popular scouting urban legend is that BSA prohibits the use of liquid fuel stoves and lanterns. Not true.

[SMEagle819]

Yes, the one about knives has been around for as long as I can remember. To take it a step further, I think I remember someone one time saying no knives with a blade over 6 inches. Here is what the G2SS says about knives:

 

"A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility.

 

Rememberknives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft.

 

References: Boy Scout Handbook, Fieldbook, Bear Cub Scout Book, and Wolf Cub Scout Book"

 

Look, the G2SS even provides references. It does mention "avoid large sheath knives," but it does not say cannot have or use them (properly, of course).

 

Here's another myth I have heard recently: Scouts cannot have or use double headed axes. I could not find any resources with "double headed ax" in it (although I am at work, will look when I get home) that sat scouts cannot use one. We use this as part of our teaching of the Tote-n-Chip, and explain how it is used, why it was designed that way, and the added safety measures you need to follow when using this tool. I remember having one at a camporee, and was immediately reprimanded by a staffer for having it. It was in the roped off woodyard, with one side buried correctly in a log with the outward facing head properly covered with a sheath. In order to appease the staff member, I put it away in our trailer.

[Lisabob]

gwd, most of the "urban legends" I've ever "learned" came from TRAINING! I can't tell you how many times I have heard some authoritative fellow (or gal) stand up in front of the group and start spouting the silliest nonsense. Seems especially prone to occur when Boy Scout leaders get drafted (often last minute, in their defense) to teach Cub Leader Specific Training. It would be humorous if only it didn't happen with such regularity.

 

Some of the things I "learned" about cubbing at training over the years:

*Cubs can't camp at all

*Cubs can't camp more than one night

*Tigers can't attend pack overnighters

*Webelos can't camp with troops

*Webelos can't camp with younger cubs

*Webelos dens can't camp alone (apparently we've hit the trifecta here and now Webelos can't camp at all?!)

*OWL is mandatory in order to take Webelos camping

*BALOO doesn't apply to overnighters unless you sleep in a tent

*BALOO means someone with training has to do the paperwork, not go on the event

*Having a Boy Scout SM or ASM along means you don't need a BALOO-trained person at all

*Belt loops cannot be earned/must be removed/must be re-earned in order to be worn by webelos

*Belt loops cannot be earned by Tigers

*Belt loops cannot be awarded until after the bobcat is earned

*The "new" belt loops (not really new, they've been around 6-8 years now) are not official and don't count (this came from my Wood Badge CD! I promptly bought him a set, along with the academic & sports BL/pin handbook)

*Tigers can't wear blue shirts/webelos must all wear tan shirts/shirt decision is made by the den or pack, not the family

*Bobcat is optional for Tigers

*Cross-overs must happen in February because that's scout month

*Boys who haven't earned AoL by February of 5th grade are out of luck and can't stay with the pack through the end of the school year to finish it up.

*Only Bears can earn the cub scout whittling chip so if your kid is a webelos and didn't earn it previously, it is too late

*AoL knot cannot be worn on a boy scout uniform

*Cub religious knot cannot be worn on a boy scout uniform

*Adult leader knots earned as a cub leader cannot be worn on an adult's boy scout uniform

*Boys who earned AoL don't have to do the Scout requirements when they join Boy Scouts

 

And I'm sure there are more...these are just some of the ones I remember having to go back and unlearn, or unteach, later on. Methinks we need re-education programs for our trainers.

[John-in-KC]

From G2SS:

"The use of liquid fuels for starting any type of fire is prohibited."

http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss07.aspx

Boldface denotes policy.

 

I can see how that morphed into an urban legend of no liquid fuels...

 

Here's one that just got changed: Remember that we could not have passengers in the beds of pickup trucks? OBE, folks. Here are the cites:

 

Under no circumstances are youth to be carried in the bed of or towed behind a pickup truck. The beds of trucks or trailers must never be used for carrying youth.

http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss12.aspx#b

 

XII. Transportation: Campers, Trailers, and Trucks

 

The word "passengers" was changed to "youth" in the first paragraph.

http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gssay.aspx

 

(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[John-in-KC]

Lisa,

 

Maybe we can establish Camp Osawippe as a re-education center....

 

Bwooooohahahahaha...

 

(ducks and runs)

[BrotherhoodWWW]

Yessir when Councils establish rules that are stricter than those prescribed from BSA it leads to confusion. From my perspective BSA = Council, even though in fact Councils are given latitude on some matters.

 

Wow, it took me a long time to type this one. I was referencing the OP!

 

(This message has been edited by brotherhoodwww)

[Bob White]

Sure, if that is all that was ever written or taught by the BSA about the use of chemical fuels, but its not.

 

LisaBob

There are over 300 councils and over 1200 districts in the BSA. When you realize the percentage of volunteers just on this forum who do not yet know or have refused to acceept the elements of the scouting programs, is it any surprise that there are some volunteers in some districts who find there way in to District and council position who do not know what they are doing?

 

Its not just unit leaders who need to learn the program, nor is it an excuse to put all the blame on trainers. Trainers cannot stop you from reading a handbook. Each person needs to take responsibility for their own capabilities and development.

 

There are ample resources for a person to learn their job in scouting, In person training is just one of many.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Lisabob]

True Bob, true. As a sort of professional trainer myself I find it especially irksome when the person claiming to be the authority figure doesn't bother to learn the material first. Or, when asked a question they don't know, they make stuff up on the spot instead of just admitting they don't know and maybe recommending where both parties could go to find the right answer. Or, when mistakes occur, they refuse to accept that perhaps someone else has more up-to-date information than they do - even to the point of being confronted with the physical evidence of updated awards/material, etc. Bad practice. Maybe it is just my personal pet peeve though.

 

 

[scoutldr]

In this council, "no sheath knives" is not an urban legend, it's the rule. Even codified it in the camporee and summer camp leaders' guides. Since most butter knives and cooking knives don't have sheaths, my interpretation is they are permitted.

 

"No liquid fuels for starting fires"...so I guess it's ok to pour it on after the fire is started...?

 

As I said before, my real job involves reading government rules and regulations and interpreting them...and we DO split hairs. BSA needs to learn to write what they mean. It IS possible.

[gwd-scouter]

LisaBob - pet peeve of mine as well and it has come my way many times. A lot of long-term Scouters in my District pass along misinformation. When I have made comments that the BSA rules are such and such or better yet that there is no BSA that states XYA, I have been met with rude looks and outright "how would you know" comments.

[OldGreyEagle]

Gwd, the proper response in such a case is to look at them quizzically and state, "Have you never studied?" (from Ghostbusters Egon to Venkman)

[Stosh]

I have had scouters say I set a bad example for my boys when I wear my belt axe and sheath knife. However, when it comes to fire starting, cooking, and maintaining a cook fire, these items are necessary. I find that a single jackknife insufficient for kindling and full or 3/4 axes way to big. Both items are very useful and probably was one of the reasons BSA used to provide them for purchase to all scouts. One of the reasons these items are no longer in vogue is because not many people actually know how to use them properly. It may be a reason why our local camp no longer even uses axes as well. We cooked in camp and needed firewood and they provided it, but it took a second request to get a splitting maul to actually make the wood useful. When one cooks in camp, there's a constant need to get a fire going quickly and to make sure it is extinguised, properly. Turning the knob on a gas stove is reasonably simple, but we find leaving the gas and stoves behind requires specialty equipment to replace it. Jackknives are too small and axes too big. Thus sheath and belt axe are perfect.

 

I'm thinking many of these urban legends are a result of changing attitudes and understanding of a changing program. It's easier to simply say it's not allowed than it is to give a proper explanation of the changes.

 

Stosh

[BrotherhoodWWW]

"Its not just unit leaders who need to learn the program, nor is it an excuse to put all the blame on trainers. Trainers cannot stop you from reading a handbook. Each person needs to take responsibility for their own capabilities and development" Bob White

 

Why should they Bob? You posted in your quiz who is responsible to train a units leaders. You have stated folks should follow BSA guidelines and seek answers from BSA literature to truely understand the program and yet you are advocating them not following it?

 

One I heard at a training seminar is that "even Boy Scouts use the cub scout sign when trying to get the group quiet!"

[Bob White]

Scoutldr

 

Here is were a little training an little common sense make the difference.

 

The Council can make a rule that you cannot have a ________(fill in the blank, on council property or at a council event. But They have no authority to say you cannot have a ________ anywhere else unless it is a national policy of the BSA.

 

I don't care if we are talking about fixed blade knives, I-Pods, or powertools. The Council has no authority to tell you what you can or cannot use off of their property or outside of their events, unless it is in support of a national policy.

 

The Council cannot dictate to you that you cannot have a fixed blade knife at a troop meeting or at a unit activity since there is no BSA policy against fixed blade knives.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)