Early Webelos crossover

[croushorn]

"If you join the Army is it important to know how to shoot a rifle or march or clean the latrine before joining? "

Are you seriously comparing the military training of an adult to that of a 11 year old boy? Oh, how about for starters the 24 boot camp versus an hour and half once a week for starters...

 

"There are no prerequisites to joining a troop. No skills are required."

Clear.

 

"If an unprepared Webelos Scout joins a troop, how is he hindered in any way?"

In any way? How about taking the kid away from Momma for the first time in his life for one?

 

"If a green kid with no Cub background joins what disadvantage does he have that can't be remedied in 30 days and 1 campout? "

I don't have time to list all the possiblilities. 30 days... Wow I'd love to study your unit's program.

[Gold Winger]

The point, snoring bear, is that one does not have to be a Cub Scout to be a successful Boy Scout and that there is not great disadvantage for those who were not a Cub Scout. Maybe even an advantage because they don't have the parents who want to toddle around after little Johnny like they did in Cub Scouts.

 

As for being away from Mommy for the first time, it's time to grow up.

[croushorn]

Of course there are no absolutes, agreed. But greatly disagree concerning there being a disadvantage or hindrance for a boy that is completely new to Scouts, or is a product of a weak Pack or Den. If there are stats available that break down the retention of BS or earned their Eagle that were vs. were not involved in Cub Scouts then the disagreement would be settled. Just following a troops new Scout program for a full year will show many many variables and some critical differences that definitely contribute to how high retention & success (defined) percentage is. And this is a key factor with the Centennial Award, we need to start looking closer at why we lose Scouts and what we can do better to retain them. Working closer with Packs and their Webelo leaders will only become more and more of a part of a Troops annual program.

[Gold Winger]

The basic problem is that most kids don't want to be in Scouting. They stick it through Cub Scouts because their parents want them to be there. In Boy Scouts . . . they just don't want to be there. It isn't cool. No video games. You're expected to be nice. You have to do things that seem lame like learn about CPR. Go outside? Sweat? Sleep on the ground? No TV? How lame can you get?

[Eagledad]

>>The basic problem is that most kids don't want to be in Scouting. They stick it through Cub Scouts because their parents want them to be there. In Boy Scouts . . . they just don't want to be there. It isn't cool. No video games.

[Bob White]

The thought that most boys don't want scouting is unsupportable. But it is evidentthat many units do know deliver a scouting program, and that is probably the biggest reason that youth leave scouting.

[eolesen]

Given the choice of camping with his friends & being able to light fires, or play video games, even my XBox and Wii addicted 15 year old will chose fire and sleeping under the stars every time.

 

And he's more or less checked out of his Troop for the past six months. Yet he still loves to camp.

 

No, he definitely wants Scouting. Minus all the interference from the helicopter adults, he'd be a lot more active.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

[BCWhite]

I have read this series of posts with great interest. I am a Webelos Den Leader with 11 boys in the Den. The total number of boys in the Pack is 20 (very small). 2 of the Webelos are in 5th grade, 1 is in his first year and the other (my son) is in his second. It is hard to balance the requirements the 2nd year Webelos need for AOL with the ones the boys need for their Webelos Badge. I planned on crossing my son over ASAP, but have since rethought it. Mostly based on maturity, but also would like him to cross over with the other 5th grade who will take longer to complete his requirements. I didn't plan on being the Webelos Den Leader, but the other one quit after the first meeting. I am glad I stepped up as this is my first time as the Den Leader (I have been an Assistant DL, Committee Member and Venture Crew Advisor in the past). I plan on 'crossing' over with my son when he goes, but part of me wanting to wait now it my loyalty to the boys in their first year.

[gwd-scouter]

BCWhite - welcome to the forum. I would say for the sake of the boys in your den, that you cross over your son and the other fifth grader when they are ready, but remain behind yourself for another year with the other boys. It will allow your son to have some time on his own to get to know and rely on the boys in the Troop and will be better for the fourth grade boys to continue another year with the same den leader. Then you and the other nine boys can join the Troop.

[kahits]

Thanks for the great responses. Just an update with our incoming Webelos, things have moved quickly, now, with the den scheduled for their AOL/Crossover ceremony, three weeks from tomorrow. I was still under the assumption we had more like 3 months, rather then 3 weeks, but the boys are getting restless. The CM's son is virtually a professional BMX rider, and is only agreeing to stick with the troop to the end of the year, which is a real shame, but explains why his Dad has been non-committal in talking an adult position in the troop. I may be lucky to only have an ASM step up out of the parents, with a few on the committee side. I was being more then a little hopeful, I guess, in thinking that I would have my SM replacement by recharter in 09, but I'm okay with that if that is just how it needs to happen, even if my son has gone on to a local Venture crew that is looking to start up, with some of his friends from school.

[GKlose]

BCWhite - I was in a similar circumstance a year ago. My Webelos II son turned 11 about a month after school started (5th grade). I'll admit I didn't understand the age rules at the time, and he was content to finish earning AoL with his den.

 

I think that I had I understood the crossover rules properly, I may have encouraged him to finish AoL in his Webelos I year (4th grade, but he turned 10 about a month after school started, and was 10-1/2 by the time the Webelos II den was crossing over).

 

So, my second son is in the same boat. He starts school tomorrow (4th grade), and turns 10 in less than a week. He will be 10-1/2 by March, and the regular crossover for the pack is in April (I know that most packs do this in February, but this packs marches to its own drummer, which is a story unto itself). I've told him that if he works hard he can do both Webelos I and II activities this fall, and then crossover in April, in order to get to the troop his brother is in earlier. Mom will be happy with that, because I think she is tired of Cub Scout activities (they meet on a night where I'm busy, so she handles the bulk of it). I'll be happy just getting both kids at the same meeting the same night, and have the same weekend activities.

[BCWhite]

GKlose, thanks for your input, I really want him to cross over and if I had understood the age rules, would have last year. He wants to do Boy Scout things, some of which we are doing as Webelos like camping. I think I'll let him work this fall on Webelos, take him camping a few times and let him cross over when he is ready.

[GKlose]

I would think that every boy is different, and had I read the signals properly, I would have guessed that my son was ready to move up when he turned 11 (I think he was ready for more, and sort of lost interest with what was going on with his W2 den). He didn't seem so interested in actually earning Arrow of Light, but I'm sure that now he has it, he's glad.

 

My younger son is a completely separate case. He's a W1, turns 10 in a few days. He, too, seems done with Webelos, and doesn't seem to care whether or not he earns the Arrow of Light. But he takes our cues from us ("do you want to earn Arrow of Light?", and he says "maybe, I guess so."). So I tell him one option is to finish the Webelos Badge and Arrow of Light by spring, and then he could cross over. He says he likes camping, but seems to show no interest in moving up to a scout troop (I get the feeling that he wants to be more sports-oriented, so I pointed out to him there are programs for that, such as special merit badges and Varsity Scouts, and he shows mild interest in that).

 

I wish there were clear-cut answers, but so far there hasn't been for us.

[croushorn]

GKlose: Ive watched this process over the years and it is an interesting one: how much people empower their sons and hope it comes out Ok. Close friends of mine get their heart ripped out when their son turns on them announcing they are quitting Scouts or arent going to cross over. I hate to watch it, but these parents abdicated that choice to their son. My feeling, as terrible as this may sound is that we need to be the adult here. If I give my son the choice at 10 or 11 years old to make important decisions that will affect him for the rest of his life, then I better be ready for the possibility of him choosing the option I didnt prefer.

I hear this often from Webelo parents well, he has to decide for himself... Bull. Reasonable adults that have high expectations of grades and success in other areas, seem to accept less than that in others. So that is their way out: that it isnt that important whether or not Johnny continues in Scouting, or what troop he selects. If we give little Johnny the choice of not going to Sunday school versus sleeping in, what do we think hell pick 99 times out of 100? There are some basic decisions that back up the values of our family, and each has to decide which values are important enough that we stick to. Some things arent negotiable, education in school and faith, and in my house, Scouting too. I picked the Troop for my son. After that I gave him much leeway, but it wasnt an option over where or if he was crossing over. Theres no way he could comprehend the organizational and philosophical approaches of the troop he was headed to that I did. Im of the belief that if we raise our children with certain expectations that are not negotiable they will rise to meet them because they know no other way. If we give them an out of accepting less, then they will take the easier route. Almost every time.

 

My advice: I dont expect that a kid of a preteen age can reasonably understand the full picture of the choices we sometimes ask of them. Dont make this a major stress decision in his life. Because if pushed he will make the safe choice, especially when he doesnt know what to expect, and that is to not continue on. Make the best choice you can for him and let him take it from there.

 

[GKlose]

Thanks, Roaring Snoring Bear...I'm kind of on the same page as you...I think I can probably convince him to join, and I have a few angles I can work. He says that he does like camping, so I think with his Outdoorsman badge coming up, and with the required overnights for Arrow of Light, he'll get more camping time in, in a scout setting.

 

One way I plan on doing this is by telling him that I'm planning on troop camping with my older son, so if he wants to participate, he'll have to join. I'll ask him to try it through at least First Class (by then he'll have a bunch of camping skills, and one or two summer camps). If he isn't hooked into the program by then, there's not much else I can do to change his mind.

 

I'm also not sure of his real reasoning. He might be resisting because scouts is his brother's thing, and he doesn't want to follow in the shadows. But once I know, I can probably work on some of those angles. Reading him isn't always so easy -- there's what he says, and what he really thinks.

 

A side note: both of my kids have studied piano since age 3-1/2. There are very specific reasons why I have had them do this, and I tell them the reasons often. But still they go through cycles. They resist, they put in half-effort, they complain. But, in the end, they always succeed at a certain level, and move on to the next level (the annual recitals have a lot to do with that). So, I guess what I'm saying is that they aren't strangers to having to do things they really don't want to do. (I'm perfectly willing to talk about the reasons I have for them studying music, but doing so right now is kind of a digression).