Early Webelos crossover

[kahits]

Having had a conservation with the CM of one of our feeder (in theory) packs, today, I wanted to confirm the status of his sons, Webelos II den. They have 10 boys in the den, of which 9 are contemplating joining our troop.

 

We invited them and their parents to attend Spring Camporee, for the day last April, to start the ball rolling. Since then, they have completed most or all of their requirements for AOL, in their first Webelos year, and finishing up with the rest over the summer. He is considering a crossover into our troop around the middle of December. I strongly suggested that he not wait long, and allow them to cross over in October or November. Since these 5th grade boys will have little remaining to do for all these remaining den meetings, I thought I would ask here, what can be offered in the form of a transition that would recognize their early participation in the troop, while they will more then likely not be able receive credit for the training, until after they join.

 

We lost boys from my son's pack, because their adult leaders wanted to hold their boys back, for several months, before they finally crossed over. They boys crossed over, alright, but dropped out of the troop after just one campout (it was only 2 boys). I don't know if these are at all similar, but the idea of making Webelos wait this long is not something I care to repeat, nor can the troop afford to lose any more boys whos time was delayed, by a choice of their parents. I know if the boys voted, they would all vote to crossover, at the first opportunity.

[Pack212Scouter]

Wow...that is a REALLY early bridgeover. We actually had to push ours back to the begining of April this year to make sure they get everything done because we're doing the God and Country program. Keep in mind that they can also do the "Super Achiever" as Webelos. It goes by many names but it's earning all the pins. Our Troop usually waits until they are Web 2's to do alot of the AOL requirements with them. If they are ready, then I would say go for it. I would make sure to schedule it for when you know that they all meet the requirements and have received their AOL.

[kahits]

This pack are very much over achievers, when it comes to the W2 den. Of course, the CM's son is in the den, and even though his father is not the WDL, they have been gung ho from the beginning of the W1 year. They have done alot of work, this summer, along with going to WWW at the Council camp, which my son's pack never did, mostly because we/I never had the kind of active parents this den has been blessed with. He is telling me they all have completed their AOL requirements, as of right now, and I agree they could continue and complete the rest of the pins. I'm just a little concerned that by moving the crossover to the end of the year, they might start losing the boys interest, now that they have done some things with the troop, and are wanting to do it for real, as Boy scouts. They will all meet the requirements for crossover, by September, and I'm just wondering what else I can propose, if I can meet with their group of leaders, in the next few weeks. The programs are so very different, I just hate to lose a single boy, if they are ready to go now, and my group of boys are young enough to welcome them to the troop, when they give us the word.

[Bob White]

I would think that if it was their Webelos experience that caused the youth to quit that they woul have quit while in the pack???

 

But they did't. They stayed active in the pack untiul they crossed, and they did not quit until after their first camping experience with te troop.

 

Isn't it possible that their quitting is unrealted to their time as cubs, and directly related to their experience in the troop?

 

I would not worry about their time in the pack, the pack does not seem to have a problem keeping them as members. Perhapps your concern should be more about the ability of the troop program to keep them interested?

[kahits]

Thanks, BW. Truth be known, I went with my son to the troop (2 1/2 years ago), with the understanding that the Webelos 1 den would follow behind us, both boys and dads. In hind sight, it was a leap of faith on my part, not having any idea the difference between the two programs, and if I had really known this was going to happen, I probably would have not crossed over into this troop, and it would have never made it to it's 70th birthday (this past January).

 

After 8 months in the troop, I attempted to do this same crossover coordination with the now Webelos 2 den, and they decided they were going to wait until March or April, which I could see was normal. They wanted their boys to act as (untrained) den chiefs to the rest of the pack (my son's den was the only one to have a DC that stuck with the den from Bears to crossover). Becauese they earned most of their pins with our Webelos den, they stopped having den meetings, for that last year, which was what worried me. Obviously, this was their own pipedream, but what could I say.

 

I still had them come with us to Klondike (in which the DL proceeded to coach the boys thru almost every event, not understanding this is not Cub scouts). We got thru that, and they ended up agreeing to crossover just in time for Camporee in April. Again, I spoke with the DL that this was not Cub scouts and if he had any issues with the older boys, he needed to go thru me. He started telling them what to do (being the X Special forces vet that he was)and one of the older boys asked him, who made you my Daddy? I wasn't present when this exchange happened, but due to some unforseen circumstances, he ended up unable to communicate any of this to me, on top of him being very stressed in trying to make his son an instant Boy Scout when it came time to put up their tent (the dad wanted to share a tent with his son, and not let him camp with the other boys), he ended up driving off early on Sunday morning with our kitchen in the back of his truck. Lovely!

 

Yeah, there was more going on in that situation, and more could have been done to try and mitigate this adult leaders desire to control just about everything, but then if it had worked, I would still be dealing with his military attitude for 2 more years, and I would be the one who is gone by now. When your unit is small, these things can be a death sentence. Somehow, I managed to keep it going, in the hope that a large group of boys and their leaders are going to show up and take it over. I can still dream, I guess, that maybe this group is going to do just that.. in due time. The end result of that crossover was since we were talking only about 2 boys and 2 dads, one boy decided not to pursue Boy scouts, and returned the neckerchief and other items, and the other boys dad brought the chuck box to the next troop meeting, with both his and his sons neckerchiefs in a zip lock, saying he had never seen a more disrespectful unit, in comparing it to Little league, of which he happened to be the head of the umpires. I could see his was close to getting emotional, and thanked him for bringing everything back.

 

Boy scouts isn't for everybody, and life goes on, certainly for me and my son. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we have a good opportunity with this new den of boys and dads, but I assume nothing from this experience. I think I need to attend their next adult leader meeting, absolutely.(This message has been edited by kahits)

[PACK15NISSAN]

Just a quick question:

 

Are all of the boys 10?

 

If not, they won't complete their AOL until December. Arrow of Light requirement 1 says:

 

Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelso badge.

 

If not all of the are 10 or haven't been 10 for at least six months by October or November they could still cross they just wouldn't have earned their AOL.

[ScoutNut]

Without earning their AOL, the boys MUST have finished 5th grade and be at least 10 years old. They can also join a Troop without their AOL if they are 11 years old.

 

Unless all of the boys in the den turned 10 in January there is no possible way that they have met all of the AOL requirements right now. Also, unless they all turned 10 in April, or earlier, there is no way that they can meet the requirements for AOL by October either. Most school districts finish the school year at the end of May. Six months after that (AOL Requirement) is the end of November.

 

Kahits, you need to calm down and stop rushing these boys along. They are not "your" boys. It is not "your" den or Pack. Let the boys move at THEIR own pace. Perhaps they want to work on more Activity Badges. Maybe they want to stay in the Pack for PWD one last time. Maybe the Pack's December Pack meeting is special to them. If they have a decent DL there is still plenty for them to do as Webelos to keep them interested. If you keep pushing, and rushing them, they may just decide that they would rather go elsewhere.

 

[Bob White]

What does all that stuff with the DL have to do with what month the Webelos cross-over? Would he have been any different if you crossed the Webelos in February rather than October or December.

 

The scouts quit as Boy Scouts and not as Cub Scouts and that seems to be an important factor.

[Gold Winger]

I'm with BeeDub here. I doubt if the crossover date had anything to do with the quitting.

 

Sure the boys might want to crossover as early as possible but boys would also vote to live on mac & cheese and Vault soda.

 

 

[kahits]

The boys have all turned 10 before summer, from what the DL and CM have told me, so they should meet that requirement. Once I realized they were completing their requirements for AOL by the beginning of 5th grade, that is when I got concerned they might not have enough to keep them from getting bored with the program. I certainly may be stepping over the line in all this, but I'm trying to help the pack keep this group together and excited about doing Boy Scouts. Isn't that my job? Some of the parents have expressed concerns about their sons going into a troop in 5th grade, and whether they are mature enough, but when I described our young, small troop make-up they were more comfortable. Obviously, there are other reasons for this crossover date, because I would like their 4 to 5 leaders to start the year, from the beginning, which will happen whether they crossover in November or December.

 

There are personal reasons for all of this, absolutely, because my son will be completing his Eagle, next year, and is looking at going to a Venture crew with some old school friends. I'm committed to the future viability of the troop, but have told the Webelos parents, I am looking at 2009 as my last year as SM. I wish it was a different situation, but the reality is we are losing key adult leaders, who's son's have gotten their Eagle and went to college, in the last year or two. I need to replace them, along with the CC, who was the past SM. I plan to stay as a committee member, if that is their pleasure, but 3-4 years as SM is the limit of my commitment. I don't know how long my son will remain active in scouting, past his Eagle, but I can commit to being Chapter adviser, for a while, but that will probably be the end of it. It might have been different if I had been able to do Boy scouts as a youth, but 8-10 years as an adult is good enough, in response to my son bringing home that slip of paper for a Tiger cubs recruitment in his first few weeks of starting 1st grade. I admire and respect what I have seen on this board and in my district, when it comes to these parents remaining long after their sons and daughters have left scouting, but I won't be able to do that in my personal situation.

[eolesen]

Sometimes boys are more than ready for crossover, but we don't take into consideration that perhaps their parents aren't.

 

That's why it's important to spend time talking to parents before crossover to let them know that they're welcome to participate, but it ain't Webelos III, and they're not a registered leader until the CC or SM accepts their application to be one.

 

The situation you ran into with the now-former DL might have been avoidable -- he was used to calling the shots, finding himself busted in rank so to speak, and obviously frustrated that the weekend didn't turn out even close to what he thought it would be like.

 

But I suspect that it could have turned out differently had the conversation between the two of you taken place at your meeting place the week prior to the event.

[Gold Winger]

Gee, I learn something new every day. I didn't know that the SM could approve new leaders. I thought that job belonged to the CC and COR.

[kahits]

Thanks, Eol.. I was very disappointed that we lost that boy and his father, because of the incident at Camporee. He never liked that boy in the troop, but his approach was so different from mine. When my son and I joined the troop, there were some 17 boys on the troop roster and they were light years away from my son and my experience as a parent. It took me many months to begin to develop a connection with just some of them, as they began to, quickly, age out of the troop. I knew this boy in particular, because he was a few years ahead of my son in the pack, before he dropped out, due to his parents bitter divorce. They were still at each others throats, when he joined the troop at the request of his friend, who joined a few months before my son.

 

I agree that there should have been a formal meeting to talk about the transition to the troop, but it ended up being a long phone conversation, instead. I have requested to meet with the parents in that den, to do just that with this crossover, but none of them are as controlling as this father, certainly was. I made some assumptions, having known him since his son was a Tiger, a year behind my son, but since that incident, I have gone back to the pack we shared, and could see that he, as my CM replacement, had turned the flag ceremonies into full military processions, which his replacements are now struggling to pull off, with none of them having his military background. I considered him a friend, and hoped he would be able to greatly assist the troop in it's effort to recruit and retain more scouts. I saw him ordering my son at that Camporee (my son likes to walk in front on hikes.. because he is always looking for things.), telling him to get back in with the group as they were walking to the next station, but I didn't say anything. I believe that even we as adults in the troop have to earn our respect, and we sure aren't there to necessarily parent the other scouts, at least not as a perfect stranger.

[infoscouter]

I understand your concern. I can understand why the future of your troop has so much invested in recruiting these boys.

 

That said - don't take them until they and their parents are truly ready.

 

How much camping have they done as a den, where the boys set up the tents, make the duty roster, do the cooking and the KP, pack their own clothes, etc.? If they haven't done enough, September, October, and depending on your climate November would be great opportunities for den meetings and outings focused on those skills.

 

I have heard of troops and dens at this stage of transition where the Webelos start meeting at the same place and time as the troop. They have a joint opening, then during the troops skills instruction time the Webelos have a den meeting. If you have Boy Scouts to spare they could help teach an activity badge session during that time. Depending on the nature of the activity, the Webelos come back for the interpatrol activity and the closing.

 

These joint meetings would be great opportunities for parents to see the Boy Scout troop in action, to see "boy led", to meet with you and an ASM or Committee member to learn how Boy Scouting will differ from Cub Scouting for their boys and themselves.

[Pack212Scouter]

The absolute earliest that they could cross as a group would be either December, or six months after the youngest's tenth birthday.

 

Don't rush them though. It sounds like one of your big concerns is needing leaders. This is not a good reason. Needing leaders is a troop issue that needs to be looked into, not a Pack advancement issue. Don't rush these boys because you need their parents, you are almost sure to lose some of them in that case.