Question on the definition of Adult / Guardian

[NJCubScouter]

I mostly agree with what Bob just said. I do not know what this particular person, in this situation, in whatever state he is in, would need to do to become "legal guardian" of the child. It is clear, however, that whatever it is, as of now he has not done it. On a BSA outing he cannot be in a tent with anyone except another adult male. In any event, we have been told he will be in his own tent, so all is well.

[Stosh]

Hmmm... so if a scout travels all the way across the country to attend an event and the event says that in order for the scouts to participate they have to have to sign a waiver, and for those under 18, need a parent/gardian signature, the boys have to pack up and go home?

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Bob White]

I wouldn't put it that way. I would say that the scout could not participate as there was no parent or guardian present to legally sign the waiver. Whether or not you made him pack up and go home is a separate issue.

 

I would hope that there would be a plan B that could be used. But a troop who traveled to an event not knowing in advance that the would be the need to have have waivers signed prbably does not plan well enough to even consider a plan B.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Stosh]

Unless one is planning on always taking parents along, there are certain activities that require waivers and yet there is no way to sign them until one gets there. It's not an issue of planning, it's an issue of that just the way it is. It's also not an issue of just one scout, it is none of the scouts would be able to participate in the event. Plan B is shut down the unit.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

If you know that certain activities require waivers then wouldn't part of your planning be to obtain the waivers in advance and get them signed by the parents or legal guardians and take them with you on the trip???

 

If you know that you cannot participate legally in the activity then should you be attending the activity as a scout unit to begin with???

[Stosh]

Unless one has permission from the parents to sign for their child. Which, of course, is a parent's perogative.

 

Which will probably hold up in court with about as much validity as the waivers that get signed.

 

That's why each of the leaders is backed by written permission from the parents, from National BSA, and $3.5M worth of liability insurance when all else fails.

 

So regardless of whatever "rules" one might think they know, there's always a work around to every situation. After all, not everyone on this forum is a lawyer.

 

Stosh

[Gold Winger]

" But a troop who traveled to an event not knowing in advance that the would be the need to have have waivers signed prbably does not plan well enough to even consider a plan B."

 

We went to a summer camp that offered horseyback riding. A few Scouts signed up for it but once we were at camp, we discovered that the equestrian facility was a vendor and that there was supposed to be a special permission form for that vendor. No one, from any troop, had the form. I guess we all planned poorly because council staff never could do anything wrong.

 

 

[Gonzo1]

I don't think this has anything to do with waivers.

It has to do with the boyfriend going on the outing and where does he sleep since he isn't married to momma. Either he marries her, gets his own tent or stays home. I suppose he could also sleep in the car. Maybe he could arrive for breakfast and leave after the campfire, but he can't sleep with the kids or momma.

[Bob White]

You expect reasonable people to believe that the camp did not know that the vendor would be needing individual waivers BEFORE they signed the contract with the vendor?

 

Sorry, but I personally do not find your posts to be trustworthy enough to believe that scenario.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Bob White]

Jbklake What "written permission from the BSA"?

[Gold Winger]

You don't have your permission from BSA National? Oh, oh! You're in trouble now. I have mine right here. I'm sure that everyone else does too. You had better call Texas and get yours.

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

I think you will find if you check with a lawyer that legal guardian ship (which is what the BSA refers to when it says parent or guradian) is not likely to be the correct way to go in this case unless you really think the mother WANTS to forfeit her parental rights to her boy friend.

 

Anyone know where we can find the BSA defines guardian as "legal guardian"?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter]

There's an easy out here. Go ahead and forge signatures if needed to play along with the paperwork game being imposed by the evil system. It's a minor detail between you, the forgee, and your Maker. Define terms to suit the needs of the situation if that helps.

[Stosh]

Our unit has a letter of exemption for certain activities, procedures, methods, etc. because of our unique situation.

 

We've had it for 10 years now, never had a legal challenge to it, and I don't think BW's challenge constitutes any legal challenge so we'll just keep doing what we're doing.

 

And as far as the horseback riding scenerio is concerned, it isn't as far fetched as BW implies. I personally have run into the exact same situation and I doubt whether it was at the same camp as GW indicates.

 

Yes, there are valid exceptions to all the rules, but equally valid ways of working around them.

 

As far as BSA is concerned, their policies and procedures aren't always the best but one must adhere to it nonetheless. For example, G2SS has just come out and said that Venturing crews cannot participate in large bore weapon activites. However in the reenacting world, the artillery are the only unit's nationally certified for safety. Most activities will not allow them into their events without proof of such certification. All other reenactors do not need to meet any safety certification processes. Go figure. BSA may eventually learn more as they go on and make the appropriate adjustments.

 

Before one finds it necessary to challenge others, one must first carry the appropriate credentials. Being a forum member isn't the approriate credential.

 

Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

I shudder to think of the possible ramifications for a Scouter who signs a waiver for someone else's son and then a tragedy occurs. The recent deaths of the Scouts in Iowa, and previous incidents, should remind us that you don't necessarily have to be rock climbing, flying or whitewater rafting for things to go horribly wrong. A freak bolt of lightning or tornado comes out of the sky, a piece of machinery breaks, a vehicle suddenly goes out of control, and it's all over but the grieving (and the lawsuits.) It's part of life, unfortunately. But if a site operator finds it necessary to require a waiver of liability, etc. before entering into an activity, it is up to the parent/guardian of each Scout to decide whether their son is going to participate under those conditions. If you sign on behalf of some other parent (without their knowledge), and the unthinkable occurs... what do you think is going to happen? Even if there were no lawsuit, wouldn't you find it difficult to live with that?