Question on the definition of Adult / Guardian

[NJCubScouter]

I'm beginning to remember why I took a 2+ year break from this forum.

 

Based on Evanscm's posts, we don't know anything at all about the "father." We don't even know if he is alive. We don't know if he was ever married to the mother. Or if he was, maybe he was an abusive husband/father. Maybe this new guy is the best thing that ever happened to these kids and their mother.

 

Or maybe not. The point is, we just don't know.

 

Nor did Evansmc ever say that the mother and her fiance are living together, although I assumed (along with everybody else, apparently) that they are. And on that point, I do not recall anything in the YP guidelines or the G2SS about "lifestyles." What I do recall are rules about who can be in what tent, which is what this thread is about, and which are apparently being followed based on Evansmc's second post.

[Crew21_Adv]

Fellow Posters,

 

Based on the question by evansmc...

 

We have assumed that the fiance is neither the parent or legal guardian. This is the problem only during accommodations. From the G2SS, here is what it says.

 

Separate accommodations.

When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his own parent or guardian.

 

We have offered a few different resolutions.

 

I can empathize with the single parent. In today's world, many of Scouting parents probably can empathize as well.

 

The young son, may (or may not) enjoy the company of the mother's fiance. The fiance may be a shining example (or maybe not). What we can assume is that the fiance is neither the parent or a legal guardian. But I would believe a better time to bond with the son and daughter may be during the Cub Scout Den and Pack meetings, as well as GS Troop meetings.

 

There may be other opportunities for the Scout's mother and fiance to date, enjoy each others company or attempt to bond on mutual ground between the fiance and children.

 

But we have to remember, this is a district campout, and the Scouting events are aimed at recreational education and development of all the Scouts. Parents and guardians are there for the safety, not for the program.

 

So at the disappointment or inconvenience of the mother and her fiance. The campout is for all the Scouts, not for the mother and her fiance.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[evmori]

Well, to split hairs just a little, the G2SS states

 

Separate accommodations.

When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his own parent or guardian.

 

There is nothing that states legal guardian. If dad wants his fiance to be his kids guardian for the camping trip, then they can bunk how they like.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[evanscm]

WOW this is getting a little crazy just some more info mom and fiance are getting married this spring (date has been set) they have been together for 1 year dad is not in the boys life fiance has stepped up and taken on that role and done an excellent job i just found out he will be joining our ranks as a registered leader taking on the role of den leader for 10 boys just thought i should share a little more im afraid of what might be posted next?

[PACK15NISSAN]

Not so much on the original subject but more so on what the debate has become.

 

I am sure it already occurs in California, but I wonder how long before we all have to deal with a father/father or mother/mother camping expereince. I have my person views, which unlike others I will not share but according the BSA guidelines that would be fine. A scout and his 2 dads or 2 moms could tent together. Maybe this should be on the political forum, just a fore thought that we may all see in the near future.

[FScouter]

None of my comments here have anything do to with this district camp, or BSA tenting rules, or the particular mom/son/boyfriend situation being unfolded in this topic. But I must comment on the underlying issues.

 

A man and a woman demonstrate their love and commitment to one another by sharing life vows and being married. Living together, sharing breakfast, and shacking up are simply terms to describe a situation where the pair do NOT want a commitment; they want to try it out and maybe get married later if they dont change their mind before then. Its selfish and hurtful to the boy. A marriage date some months down the line is hardly a commitment to marriage. Long engagements just show they arent sure about the other. Most important, the boy should not be made a party to the moms love life. When she invites her boyfriend to move in on some trial arrangement, where does this leave the boy? He needs a family, a mom and a dad, not a mom preoccupied with a love life.

 

When your son becomes an adult, would you advise him to sleep around with girls until he decides he wants to become committed? Would you advise your daughter to move in with a guy for a test drive? When adults do the play house thing, non-commitment is what they teach kids. I think the practice is a clear demonstration of a persons character and as a parent I would NOT want that kind of character in Scout leader.

[Gold Winger]

Welcome to the 21st century.

[Stosh]

Of course this guardian issue begs the question, can a SM or CA sign waivers for a minor under this responsibility?

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

"Of course this guardian issue begs the question, can a SM or CA sign waivers for a minor under this responsibility?"

 

 

No

 

[FScouter]

The rules in the Guide to Safe Scouting and youth protection are there to protect kids. They cannot be set aside because someone writes a note.

[NJCubScouter]

FScouter, I am not going to debate the "right or wrong" of living together before marriage. I think there are circumstances where it does present the kinds of problems you mention, and others where it does not. You disagree, that's fine. I would just point out three things:

 

One, nobody said anything about "sleeping around." If you think "sleeping around" is the same as living together before getting married, there's not much point in discussing it. (Interestingly, Evan still has not said these people are living together, though I'm still assuming that they are.)

 

Two, while people who are living together can change their minds about getting married, people who have already gotten married (without first "shacking up", etc.) can also change their minds about being married, and they do so every day. That's pretty disruptive for the children too. In fact, all other things being equal, it is probably more disruptive.

 

Third, and probably most importantly, at the risk of repeating myself, you have managed to turn a discussion of a Scouting-related question into a more general debate about society in general, and I still don't understand why.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[NJCubScouter]

By the way, I have always assumed that when the BSA says "guardian", they mean "legal guardian", and I would continue to assume that unless someone proves otherwise. "Legal guardian" does not necessarily mean that the people have gone to court; it means that they have done whatever their state's law requires them to do in order to make it legally appropriate to have the child live with them, enroll them in school, make medical decisions for them, etc.

[FScouter]

NJ, society can do whatever they want. Were talking about Scouting and we cannot/ should not do whatever we want if it conflicts with the values we teach through Scouting. The topic started from post 1 with an unmarried couple being told they could not attend an overnight Scouting event. I was responding specifically to your comment that you don't think it's any of our business whether (or when) these people choose to get married or how they choose to spend their weekend.

 

Anything that affects the growth of moral character and our mission to prepare kids to make ethical choices over their lifetimes, absolutely is our business. The concept of moral character is what is important and actions by adult leaders or tacit approval of actions of others that steer us away from the mission of Scouting demands our attention, concern, and action.

[Bob White]

I think you will find if you check with a lawyer that legal guardian ship (which is what the BSA refers to when it says parent or guradian) is not likely to be the correct way to go in this case unless you really think the mother WANTS to forfeit her parental rights to her boy friend.

 

By law the boy friend would need to marry the mother in order to have any legal standing as far as the child's welfare, and would actually neeed to adopt the child to solidify that legal standing. Which again would require the cooperation of the child's father if still living and assuming he still has parental rights.

 

Remember that there are levels of guardianship, but for someone to gain authority over a portion of a childs life that means that the parent(s) must surrender that authority.

 

So can the boyfriend tent with either child in this particualr case. No, not while at a BSA fnction. Can he gain legal guardianship without a court action? No.

 

 

 

 

 

[acco40]

FSCouter, of course everyone agrees that you are entitled to make your own judgment but to start believing that your values are what traditional scouting values are is over the edge. This is my beef with stupid, ignorant, marketing based slogans like - traditional values.

 

What if I was aghast that uncircumsized males were allowed on a campout with my son and oh my God - they had pork on the menu! These are not the values that Scouting espouses to in my book.

 

Does a marriage license show more commitment that not having one? That is arguable. You should teach your children the values you believe. Please don't go and interpret the values of the BSA program for me.

 

On a lighter side - for a BSA/troop outing, and adult is anyone over 18 years of age. Guardian is a glass manufacturing company is SE Michigan.(This message has been edited by acco40)