2 Deep Leadership - Husband and Wife

[ASM59]

Good Day,

 

I was informed today that our Troop is canceling this weekend's outing because of lack of leadership. It was explained that only the SM and his wife are available and this does not qualify as two deep leadership for an outing. Unfortunately no other adults are available this weekend, and because of that the outing is canceled.

 

I don't ever remember this question coming up before and I haven't researched it yet, but was wondering if this is someone's interpretation of the rule, or is it really a violation to have a husband and wife as the only adult leaders of an outing?

 

Thanks,

ASM59

[ASM915]

ASM 59,

If the wife is a registered Scouter, then there shouldn't be a problem. If we are talking about a Crew, then I believe that they need 2 males and 2 females if it is a coed trip.

 

ASM 915

[Bob White]

It is not recommended and many Many COs do not allow it. There simply is not a healthy enough level of checks and balances.

 

As far as ASM915's comments they are incorrect (sorry). Two deep leadership accepts a registered adult and a parent of a scout who is present on the activity one of whom is over 21. Since the Scoutmaster is registered and the wife is a parent of a scout (if he is present) then they technically have met the requirements.

 

In a coed Venturing Crew or Ship on an overnight activity you would need a male and a female registered leader.

[gwd-scouter]

BW: Why is it not recommended and what checks and balances are missing in this scenario? I'm also curious about the statement that many COs don't allow it. In our District we have two troops that many times only have a husband and wife as two deep leadership on an outing: mine is one (I am SM, husband is ASM) and another in which the husband is SM and his wife is the CC.

 

ASM59: There is nothing in the G2SS about the relationship of the leaders providing the two deep leadership. As BW states, two deep leadership requires one leader to be registered and the other, if not a registered Scouter, to be over 21 and the parent of a Scout. SM husband and wife (as long as she is over 21 and her son is present on the outing) as the two leaders is not just technically meeting the requirement, it is meeting the requirement.

[ASM59]

In this case, our SM's wife is also on the Troop committee, so both are not only registered, but fully trained. SMs son has aged-out, but is a registered ASM. He is in college & working so cannot attend this outing either. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I don't remember any stipulation regarding the relationship of the two adults, except as to if they can share a tent or not.

 

In my previous Troop my wife (who wasnt registered) accompanied me on a couple of outings because there were no other adults available to go. I never heard any complaints or comments from District or Council level personnel when the Tour Permit came back approved with only the two of us on it.

 

Please continue letting us know your opinion/experience on this

 

Thanks,

ASM59

[Bob White]

gwd-scouter, my guess is that you trust your husband implicitly, am I right?

 

There are two problems with that, and it seems many units realize them.

 

First, that level of trust it is not a good thing when it comes to Youth Protection. Adults leaders should trust another adult to the point that they still make sure that the all rules are followed.

 

Second, when it comes to a question of whether or not a leader did the right thing it is difficult if not impossible to get an objective point of view from a spouse. You are going to want to support your husband first, and what the scouts and families need is someone who is going to put the safety rules first.

 

Spouses on outings in the many peoples minds is just 1 person and a second (objective) adult is needed.

 

Can a maried couple meet the requirements? Yes. Would I ever do that as a leader, support it as a leader in the unit I serve, or recommend it to anyone else? No!

 

 

[GernBlansten]

I think what BW is referring to is plausible deniability. Although you technically meet the 2 deep leadership with a husband/wife combo, there would be host of questions raised in the event a youth made a YPT claim. Married couples protecting each other doesn't carry as much plausible deniability as two people not related to each other.

[gwd-scouter]

Gern and BW - I see your points. Maybe hubby and I are walking a tight rope and some day some one will question our judgment. Most of the time we have a third adult along anyway, but not because it is a requirement, or because anyone has some weird feelings about the two of us being related.

 

As far as canceling and outing: at least in our troop, I think the other families would think it very strange indeed if we said we were canceling a trip because my husband and I were the only adults going.

 

But, ASM59 asked if there was a rule against husband and wife 2-deep leadership and there isn't.

[GernBlansten]

gwd, you are not putting the youth at more risk, you are putting yourself at more risk. It is really up to you whether you wish to accept that.

[FScouter]

I'm SURE they were up half the night worried about a perceived hint of improriety and decided that was more important than a campout for the boys.

NOT! More likely they're sending a message to the other parents and leaders about helping out once in a while.

The sad part is that one or both of them should have simply announced "I'm not going on this one" and cancel the trip because there's only one leader. The ol' "against the rules" ploy preserves their image of dedication.

Or maybe they aren't as trained they think and picked up that misinformation around the Roundtable water cooler.

[NJCubScouter]

As a YP facilitator, I thought I had heard every possible question about two-deep leadership, but I have never heard this one. It has never come up in my son's troop and it is unlikely to come up with the current group of leaders. However, I agree with Bob. While the YP guidelines do not address the question of two spouses as the only two leaders on an outing, it is not a good idea. If I were in a position of deciding whether an outing should go forward, and all other efforts to find another leader/parent failed, I would, reluctantly, cancel the outing. One of the major reasons for the two-deep leadership rule is that if a false accusation is made against one leader, the other leader (who hopefully was in a position to see or hear what did or didn't happen) can verify the first leader's statements. If the two leaders are married to each other, I think that would raise too much doubt as to the objectivity of the non-accused leader.

 

It is terrible that we have to think about these things, but we do.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[Be_Prepared]

An incorrect statement was made earlier - for coed overnight activities, only ONE of the two leaders ( one male and one female ) has to be a registered member of the BSA. Both, though, have to be 21 or older.

[Bob White]

BE_PREPARED

 

Only Venturing Crews and Sea Scout Ships are permitted to have coed overnight activities. Here is what it says in the Venturing Leader Handbook.

 

page 380 under coed overnight activities. part 4

 

"An adult male leader must be housed with the and responsible for the male participants. An adult female leader must be housed with and responsible for the female participants."

 

Adult leaders are registered members. My post was accurate. The leadership requirements for coed overnight activities are different than the two-deep leadership requirements for non-overnight activities.

 

 

 

 

 

[Be_Prepared]

Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.

 

[Rooster7]

I agree with BW and others. Although, someone said this unofficial policy (second leader should not be a spouse) is not for the youths protection, it's for the leader's protection. I disagree. I think it is for both. If you read the papers, there's enough strange goings-ons these days to give parents pause for concern. If something did occur, it's not beyond the pale of reasoning to believe that a spouse was complicit (or at least to believe that the spouse could not be objective enough to stop or report an event properly). It happens. If not in the BSA, definitely elsewhere.

 

For example, if a spouse had a beer on a campout, how many spouses would report that violation to the troop or BSA? I realize most folks in BSA leadership recognize that event as a gross violation, but I suspect most spouses are not willing to strain the relationship over something like this.