BSA Rules and Regulations

[evmori]

What problem did you have and how did/would the BSA rules and regulations help/would have helped?

 

I am guessing this question was posed to me. Sorry for not responding sooner.

 

The point I am so poorly trying to make is IF all the rules & regs were in one place, it would ease the hunt to find the answer when needed. Now we must look through a myriad of manuals & on-line resources and this can be confusing and could possibly be a reason some adult leadership does their own thing. I am not endorsing that, just pointing it out.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry if I was unclear Ed

 

I guess the way I look at it, if all the answers to all things BSA were in one place and easy to find, then there would be no reason for this forum other than to discuss the woes and wonders of the units we serve

 

... the horror... the horror...(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[rmiessler]

I really appreciate the responses. Was not expecting so many.

 

In my scouting adult experience, I keep running against the "you cannot do that, it is against BSA policy". So I ask, show me, all I get is ah..ah..ah. Anyway, not their fault.

EMB021 finally answered the question I had been asking, however, I completely agree with the others which bring up the question,

Why are not these available on the website?

Especially when I signed up, I said I would abide by the BSA rules and...., hmmmm, why are so many signing blindly.

 

So I'll start with a very small incident as an example. On a troop outing, they went to a Putt-Putt, which had other items like Laser-tag. Scouts were told they would be removed from the troop if they were caught playing Laser-tag on the outing because it was strictly against the BSA R&R because you were pointing something at someone. hmmm..really?

 

I'm all for spreading some out in various materials for better ingestion, however, they still should be in one spot which EMB021 has shown me.

 

Thanks, now how do I get the National to update their website with this very valuable info?

 

[Bob White]

When needing to know the rules surrounding a specific activity you can find them in the Guide to Safe Scouting. If there is not a section on the specific activity you should refer to the Restricted Activities list to see if the activity is prohibited.

 

In that list you will see "Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unauthorized. However, law enforcement departments and agencies using firearms in standard officer/agent training may use their training agenda when accompanied with appropriate safety equipment in the Law Enforcement Venturing program.

 

If not on the list then the activity has no specific policies addressing it and you should follow the Sweet 16 of Scouting Safety.

 

Since the troop was meeting outside of the regular meeting place they should have filed a Local Tour Permit which requires that a copy of the Guide to Safe Scouting be on the trip with you. So you should have been able to verify the rule right then.

 

Better yet someone should have known what was there BEFORE the scouts went and have had the forethought to explain to the Souts BEFORE you went that they would not be able to play Laser Tag at that time.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[rmiessler]

THanks Bob, I'll go look over the Guide to safe scouting again.

 

[hot_foot_eagle]

"Scouts were told they would be removed from the troop if they were caught playing Laser-tag on the outing because it was strictly against the BSA R&R because you were pointing something at someone. hmmm..really? "

 

Paintball prohibition is a fairly well known policy, however I would argue that removal from the troop for playing seems a bit harsh. Is that sort of action supported by BSA policy? The G2SS is silent on the matter, but a clearinghouse of rules and regs might provide a quick answer.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Ahhh, starting to see the dawn...

 

There are rules and regulations, Mr Meissler. They are basically corporate governance level stuff.

 

There is policy. There is a lot of policy out there.

- Uniform and Insignia Guide is policy.

- Advancement Committee Policies and procedures is policy.

- Certain elements of the Guide to Safe Scouting are policy.

- BSA Requirements (year) #33215 is policy.

 

There is program. There is a plethora of program materials. Many program materials, such as the Boy Scout Handbook, contain elements of policy as well (the rank requirements are policy).

 

In your case, your unit bumped up against BSA policy. For whatever reason (and we've debated it until the horse's meat was off his dead carcass) the risk management folks in Irving decided Laser Tag is not to be done as a Scouting activity.

 

Is there a penalty? No. Ask someone to show you the consequences.

 

Now, if a patrol decides to go independently to Laser Tag, or the PLC decides to go to Laser Tag, then the SM should point out:

- This is not a BSA approved youth activity.

- You go outside of unit meeting times.

- Do not think of wearing Scouting clothing.

- If something happens, it's on you and your parents. (This last I would also send through adult channels to affected parents).

- If someone chooses not to go, that's their or their parents choice. Don't try to use peer pressure to make them go.

 

I suspect many will go. Young folk like laser tag, why else would they be playing it? A few will choose not to go. That needs to be OK too.

[FScouter]

I happened to go to the California Department of Motor Vehicles awhile back. There is a literature rack there with all kinds of booklets: prep for drivers test, motorcycles, helmet rules, insurance requirements, smog certificate process, how to register a homemade trailer, driver safety for older folks, info about relief from auto repair scams, etc. All of them are based on the official state Vehicle Code. All of them are written to help the public get done what it is they need to do regarding motor vehicles.

 

The official state vehicle code is nowhere to be found. Of course the branch manager probably has a copy somewhere on a dusty shelf in the corner of his office. If someone was to walk up to the counter and ask for a copy of the vehicle code, he would surely get a quizzical look and a reply along the lines of huh, what do you want that for?? Hed be sent over to the county library to see the reference librarian.

 

I see the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America in the same light. It just isnt needed by a volunteer. I doubt even the SE and the council staff ever has a need to crack open the book. Theres just nothing of use to be found in reg book that cant be more easily found in the commonly available publications.

[John-in-KC]

That was two seconds on google:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/vc.htm

 

Now, do we need the R&R? I really don't think so, but I'd like to see a blog on the National website called: "Why we decided to..."

 

Sometimes the decision makes more sense with the background.

[Beavah]

Yah, as always, it's best to be a bit nuanced in our advice, eh?

 

Rmeissler, BobWhite is correct that the guidelines on individual activities are often contained in the G2SS, and that the "unauthorized activity list" is a good thing to check.

 

On da other hand, whether or not you should file a local tour permit for a trip to putt-putt golf depends on your local council. It may not be a requirement (despite what other documents imply). And da local tour permit does not require that you bring a copy of G2SS along on a trip. That would just be silly.

 

At the moment, the game of "laser tag" remains an unauthorized activity (even though it doesn't use lasers) because National has created a new undocumented prohibition against "wargames". As far as I know, the status of laser tag remains under review, with a recommendation from the Health & Safety Advisory Committee to remove the prohibition.

 

In any event, nobody is gonna throw a lad out of the Boy Scouts if he plays a game with a laser toy during your trip to putt-putt. That's just foolishness. At most your unit commish would have a word with da SM on the side and remind him of the rule. Unauthorized activities mean just that, eh - unauthorized for use in a unit scoutin' program. They aren't prohibitions on the activity for either the scout or the Chartered Organization.

 

You do raise an interestin' issue. When a troop runs an activity like a trip to an amusement park, a service project with free time at da county fair and whatnot, it's become very likely that paintball and lasertag and such are going to be readily available activities. Shy of placing a guard at those activities, what's a troop to do? The troop didn't organize a laser tag trip, they organized a service project to the county fair.

 

I reckon da rest of the world has moved on past us and decided that those things are fine for kids, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[FireKat]

 

And da local tour permit does not require that you bring a copy of G2SS along on a trip. That would just be silly. - Opps, bev, you had better look again!

"Under the Leadership and Youth Protection Training

You must fill out everything. You will need to know you scouting position and your unit expiration date. The Tour Leaders and Unit must be chartered for Approval. You must have Youth Protection training for Camping. You must have read and be taking with you the Guide to Safe Scouting. The Tour Leader will be signing that they have read and will be taking the Guide to Safe Scouting with them."  From our council for how to fill out the new Tour permit.

From the tour permit form:

Revised December 2007 34426

2008 Printing

 

"As the tour leader, I certify that appropriate planning has

been conducted, qualified and trained supervision is in place, permissions are secured,

and I have read and have in my possession a copy of Guide to Safe Scouting and other appropriate resources._ _____________________________

Adult leaders signature"

[Bob White]

Removing the Scout for playing Laser tag at an event where they were told not to was the thetroops rule NOT the BSA's, and the troop haas the authority to set their membersgip condition as long as they do not conflict with the BSA's.

 

Is there a a penalty or consequence for taking part in a restricted activity. Yes there is. The BSA can chose to revoke the membership of the adult responsible, but the more likely consequence would be that if someone was injured or if property was dameaged the BSA's liabiality protection would not be inforce since the leadership, by taking opart in a restricted activity, did not show due diligence a condition of the the protection.

 

Now I know that Beavah has disagree with this in the past, but he also thought than having to have the Guide to Safe Scouting in your posession on trip was "silly", and as Firekat has already shown that is a well publicized regulation.

[hot_foot_eagle]

"Removing the Scout for playing Laser tag at an event where they were told not to was the thetroops rule NOT the BSA's, and the troop haas the authority to set their membersgip condition as long as they do not conflict with the BSA's."

 

And it's a good example of why an online library of BSA rules, policies, regulations, and guidelines would be helpful.

 

Perhaps I was being a bit obtuse, but my point was about the existence of a (hypothetical) regulation and not the punishment in this specific instance.

 

Perhaps I could have invented a better illustration, but this was the closest at hand.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

People, people, people . . . it should be apparent that it is in our best interest that we don't have ready access to the BSA rules and regulations, even though we agree to abide by them. Obviously this must be the case because that's the way that BSA wants it and that is as it should be because that's the way it is until it is different.

[Bob White]

The BSA rules and regs are not going to tell you what specific reppercussions a troop or the BSA or will level against anyone.

 

They will tell you in the Guide to Safe Scouting that you cannot use corporal punishment and that the unit can remove a scout from unit membership.

 

The BSA youth protection tells you that a scout leader can face civil or criminal charges for violating the BSA policies.

 

But the Rules and Regs will not give you any more information than you will find in the reference materials available for units on the specific topics that are related to unit operations.

 

Think of it like this, what punishment can you use with your children in your own home? Answer; anything you want that is not illegal.

 

What punishments can the BSA use toward a leader who violates ANY regulation? Answer; Anything they want that is not illegal.

 

What punishment can a unit use for a youth that violates a unit rule? Same answer.

 

What more do you expect the Rules and Regs to tell you?

 

If you think that you need to have the entire contents of the rules and regs of the BSA in order to correctly and safely deliver the scouting program at the unit level then you greatly mislead.

 

Besides if the regulation is that you cannot participate in an event that points lasers at another person then why would one need to know what the punishment would be? Will that determine for them whether or not they obey the rule? If that is what a person feels then leading youth is probably not the role they should be in.