Buying scouting

[Eamonn]

We have in the past talked about wearing or not wearing of knots and awards on uniforms.

I don't want to rehash that discussion.

Over the time I have been involved in Scouting on this side of the pond. I have received a lot of these. I think the count is something like 20.

Many are Training Awards.

Earning these wasn't rocket science.

I do have both the District Award of Merit and the Silver Beaver.

As we know anyone can nominate just about anyone for these awards.

I have no idea who nominated me.

I have sat on the committee that does the awarding. Some years very few people are nominated. Maybe? When this happens the committee does award these awards to someone who maybe might not have received the award had more people been nominated? This might be the reason I received the awards.

I tend to think that maybe me being someone who people tend to remember played a big part? I have never been known for being a shrinking violet. I do tend to make a lot of noise, I do talk with an English accent and have very white hair.

Having served as Council Training Chair, District Commish, District Chairman I think maybe people noticed me, remembered me and who knows some might even have thought I was doing my best to do a good job? While serving in them positions I did receive the Distinguished Commissioner Award and the District Key.

I have been involved in International Scouting for a very long time and did apply for the International Scouter's Award.

I had been involved in all sorts of Training for a long time, I was both pleased and honored to be asked to serve on Wood Badge staffs. I know I wasn't the first choice for Course Director when the opportunity came along, but again I was honored and pleased when asked to serve.

None of this had anything to do with any donations I made to the Council or the BSA.

I have donated a fair amount of money. I have made provisions in my will to leave some money to both the BSA and the Council I now serve.

I'm sure that the SE at the time was informed that I had become a Founder's Circle member, but as far as I know very few if any of the volunteers in the council know or care. These volunteers are the people who sit on the awards committees.

I have sat on several Silver Beaver Award selection committees, and to the best of my knowledge only one person has ever been awarded the Silver Beaver solely because of the amount of money he has donated. This person does donate $100,000 a year. It is the only Scouting award he has ever received and if donating $100,000 a year doesn't meet the "Services to youth" requirement? I'm not sure what might?

 

No one is saying or suggesting that rules should be bent, broken or pushed aside. But just because someone doesn't donate time or work with youth doesn't mean that they be barred or prevented from getting the recognitions that are open to them.

Bending or breaking rules is never a good thing.

We do however need to be fair.

Give people credit where credit is due.

SE's and professionals do not have a vote when it comes to who is selected to receive awards given at the Council level.

The volunteers make the selection.

So if rules are being broken? Who is to blame?

Eamonn.

 

[Karen_216]

Perhaps the benefactor was not so much wanting recognition as the person doing the awarding where it was not due. That person may be looking for something in return for giving out awards where they were not due. If a person is not familiar with what it takes to earn an award and it is offered very rarely will they so no to it being given to them. The person at fault is the one bestowing awards that were not earned. Benefactors are good things. The fact that they choose scouting to bestow a large monetary gift upon shows it is reaching the community and holds value . Individuals that can make large donations could contribute anywhere not just scouts. Look at many organizations and you have rule breakers, unfortunately these are the stories we hear about and everyone talks about.

Donors reduce the price for everyone and help councils build bettere prgrams and facilities and reach out to those in need.

 

As far as spending $$$ for formal training, lets look at that. YPT, NLE- Free, NLE- free - LST- 10.00, Cold weather training ever two years- 10.00. TDC- free . Pow-wow- 20.00. safetey afloat- free, BALOO-10.00, Wood badge (250.00 ?)So that is the largest expense. There are many others not mentioned that are nominal fees - mostly for materials or food. Do you have to do all these to get an award or be recognized?? If you are only in it to be recognized then go elsewhere. If you can honestly say you've learned not a thing in every training course you've taken you must pretty amazing or a closed book.

As far as people who are trained being less able to deal w/ the kids- it depends on the person. I've met phd's w/no common sense and people who simply graduated hs with loads of knowledge.

as far as helping the kids-- trainings real reason is so we are all going in the same direction. (as much as possible). THe majority it will help, there are always those that no amount of training can help?? Also personal enrichment is a good thing.

 

Have you looked at the new centennial quality unit program? YOu set your own goals. FOS is not a requirment. We earned last year and did not increase our numbers or have large FOS contributions.

 

[BadenP]

Oh Contrare Karen, these two adults used to go around in their uniforms bragging and showing off all their knots, beads, etc. at roundtable even though they never once helped out in a unit or with a council youth event. The scouters at roundtable used to come to me as the then DE to get them to stop disrupting the roundtable. The couple told me that all the others were jealous of them because they had more awards. I told them their conduct was not very scoutlike, they laughed and said "So What!"

 

Now I don't care how you try to justify this Eamonn but there was no excuse for these two and their behavior. The sad ending to this story was that the wife came down with cancer and passed away two years later, and the husband disappeared from the area. It amazes me the twist and turns we experience in life. I was the only scouter present at the funeral, not even the SE showed up, so I guess the old adage is true "Money can't buy you happiness."

[Bob White]

There are so few knot recognitions that are tied to donations that I do not understand the concern. If you do not wnat to make the donation don't make it. if you do not want to wear the recognistion then don't wear it.

 

This new Philmont knot has nothing top do with big bucks. In case you have not had the opportunity to atend Philmont Training Center then you probably do not realize what an inexpensive activity is is. It's a great experience and I have yet to meet anyone who returned form PTC that did not have a great experience. So if a knot recognistion helps to promote the PTC training experience what is the downside?

 

It's the BSA's uniform if they want to add a recognition for something that they feel has a positive effect on the program then why are people who have no interest in earning it complaining about it?

 

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

"Oh Contrare Karen, these two adults used to go around in their uniforms bragging and showing off all their knots, beads, etc. at roundtable even though they never once helped out in a unit or with a council youth event."

 

Never? They just showed up at a District meeting and said, "Here were are!" Interesting.

[BadenP]

Per usual Bob you missed the whole point of the thread, these were not knots tied to donations they were scouter acheivement knots, Woodbadge beads, silver beaver, District award of merit without ever serving a district, Scoutmaster awards given to people who never served in any unit nor did the requirements that all other scouters work. In other words Bobby these two bought their awards without doing anything to earn them, their awards like their uniforms were a sham. Thats what got all the other scouters so upset. DO you understand now Bob as you always throw the rules and regulations in everyones face in this forum, these people and the SE bypassed all of them and that is plainly DISHONEST.

[Gold Winger]

Color me simple but I'm really confused here. Did these people just show up with a checkbook and say, "Hey! We want to be on the district committee!"?

 

What was their motivation? Did they just want the uniforms?

 

 

[Bob White]

BP If you actually read the opening post you would see that what you posted is not what the topic of the thread is.

 

but regarding your post,

So you had two pompous leaders who disrupted a District event and you as a "trained" professional did not know how to deal with it so you want to blame WHO?

 

I am sorry you could not handle two adults who waved a chest full of bogus knots at you but that is hardly a flaw with the BSA recognition programs.

 

As for your complaint with the District Award of Merit, I am SHOCKED that a person who used to be a DE does not know the requirements for this recoignition. The recipient is not required to give service to the District asyou have stated. They are not even required to give service to Scouts.

 

You should know by know that the requirements is that the recipient be a scouter who has given service to YOUTH within the geographic area of the District.

 

You worry far too much about whether other people deserved the recognitions they recieve. If it doesn't mean anything to others then it probably doesn't mean anything to them either. Sounds to me like you just have a grudge against the SE.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[FScouter]

Per usual Bob you missed the whole point of the thread

 

No his comments are exactly in line. Rather, the point of the thread is not to discuss your one outrageous claim of someone receiving an award not earned. We were discussing the appropriateness of BSA awards designed specifically to recognize monetary contributions.

[BadenP]

F-scouter and Bob as usual you both miss the mark again and just use your infamous bile to take shots. F-Scouter it is obvious you can no longer, if you ever could, show proper decorum and should resign as a moderator. Bob you just are a very disagreeable and unlikeable person.

 

If anyone is interested in more details you can pm me since F-Scouter will delete any further posts of mine. Does anyone else in here think F-Scouter should resign as moderator??

[Eamonn]

Not trying to hijack the thread.

But....

I had a Grand-uncle Henry.

I really didn't know him that well.

He was old, I was young. He lived in Ireland and I lived in England.

I do remember as I was growing up hearing about Henry. Some said how wealthy he was.

Some said how mean he was.

Some said he was a saint, some said he was a sinner.

He was very religious.

A life long confirmed bachelor

He never drank alcohol. (Yes he was Irish!!)

At that time Roman Catholics didn't eat meat on Fridays and I remember that Henry took it a step further by not eating meat on Wednesday's as well.

Henry died when I was a young man. I was still living at home with my parents.

I'm not sure how come? but I was sent by my family to represent them at the funeral.

It was late October and I remember that it was cold and wet on the day of the funeral.

The requiem mass was said in a small little church that was somehow connected to a small monastery in the middle of no where far from anywhere. I had never been in the chapel before.

I was very surprised to see that Henry had spent so much of his money on the little church.

The organ was a gift from Henry in memory of my Great Grandparents, there were pews in memory of other family members, a stained glass window also in memory of my Great Grandparents and another in memory of my Grand Uncle Patrick.

Henry had left in his will all of his money to this church and the monks.

After the services a group of us all went to a local pub for a few drinks. We were buying rounds. Every round that was bought included a drink for a little old man that no one seemed to know. After a few rounds I asked if anyone knew who this fellow was? No one did.

I went up to this old fellow and asked him who he was? He informed me that he was my Grand Uncle Patrick! I was a little taken back and informed him that he couldn't be, as I'd just seen the big stained glass window with Saint Patrick chasing the snakes from Ireland in memory of Grand Uncle Patrick.

He smiled at me and said "Wasn't it grand of old Henry to get me that grand window in memory of me and me not even dead yet!"

It seems that Patrick had moved away from that part of Ireland many years before and him and Henry had never contacted each other.

 

Henry was happy to spend his money on the little church. Some might say that he was trying to buy his way into Heaven? I have no idea why Henry choose to spend his money as he did.

Talking with one of the monks I found out that he had attended Mass at the church every morning.

 

We are all free to follow our heart and do what we think is best.

The monks are happy with their little church.

Henry may have been a sinner or a saint? Why he did what he did is now between him and his maker.

I was happy to meet my Grand Uncle Patrick. He died a few years later. He had worked his entire life as a bartender, the family that owned the bar had adopted him and taken him in as a family member. When he died he left all his money to be spent on a first class wake.

Eamonn.

[Karen_216]

Don't judge an entire prgram or group of people on the actions of one or two persons.(is this not also a lesson in prejudice- judging a whole group (in the case- large donors- by the action/actions of a few).What about all the people who truly worked hard and earned their awards or contributed anynomously or we gracious to recieve the proper recognition?

The judgement should not be us. If they are proud of their "purchased" awards then they have justify to themselves the deservedness and a higher authority knows!! No one else truly knows the true situation unless you are they.

 

As a child I won an orientation awrd at camp once and was ashamed.

you see, myself and teammate had gotten lost during the orientation course. We were dropped off at the edge of another course and were totally lost. We wondered around and after finding markers that were part of another course we happened to run into another group and compared (copied) answers. We could have returned w/o any answers filled in and admit we had gotten hoplessly lost. (actaully we were the last to finish). While it seemed we had no chance of any award we ended up placing 2nd. While the other girl proudly announced and bragged about winning 2nd, I felt undeserved and guilty and told no one else outside the camping group I had won. I did tell that we had gotten off course and but somehow managed to finish but I went along with the cheating. I asked my teammate how she felt about winning 2nd, although she was surprised as well, she felt she we deserved another award and since were not awarded that, this on made up for it.

Again, I felt sad we hadn't won the other but getting one that was not deserved was not justifiable. A difference in moral values??

 

[FireKat]

What happened to doing what you can because it is what is the human thing to do not for what you can get out of it?

 

Thank you a million times!! Sir(s)/Madam(s) Anonymous of the world! May you long enjoy the warm fuzzy feeling and, Yes also big thank yous to all others that do those things for the right reasons, not the bragging rights.(This message has been edited by firekat)