Buying scouting

[FireKat]

In reading a lot of the topics and posts it seems like there is a new trend in scouting buy your way.

 

Item new Eagle knot

Item PTC knot

 

Now, there is nothing wrong with bestowing something on generous donors but this has gone beyond that.

No longer is it possible for working class people be acknowledged for their efforts unless they can spend $$$$ for formal training. Natl has seemed to gone the way of many other things in the society by requiring you to have a certificate for anything you wish to do. This creates a business of schools to train. The only way to do it is spend $$$ sitting through a class that you could probably teach better but you dont have the certification. Tell me how that helps the kids? Now you lose the natural mentors in favor of the certified ones that could spend the money (and time away from work) and still are not dealing with the boys effectively. (but they are Certified !! )  

 

Has natl gone into the world of money means more than anything else?

What happened to its for the boys??

 

Handing out rewards (knots) like candy makes them mean less. And buying them really devalues them. Remember the participant ribbons? Did it make the kids feel better about not getting first place? Not mine. Would buying a blue ribbon or a trophy really mean anything?

 

Lastly, why does a quality council, unit, district be directly related to numbers or money?  How does that help the individual boy?

 

[BadenP]

Firekat, This is not a new trend in scouting but one with a long history, in the late 80's-early 90's there were several married couples who had done this, bought their WB beads without doing any work other than attending the sessions, promoted to run and head the council training committee by the SE, paraded themselves at roundtables like royalty. I was a new DE and one of these couples was in my district. The husband and wife each racked up the District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, WB, Scoutmaster Key, and many others and all they ever did was contribute a lot of money to the council and appoint their close friends to select council and district positions. The SE made sure he signed off on each award without them ever going through normal channels most scouters do. That SE was finally removed and promoted to a higher position but the damage had been done. So yes you can buy scouting in some councils. Sad but true.

[Gold Winger]

" And buying them really devalues them. Remember the participant ribbons? Did it make the kids feel better about not getting first place? Not mine. Would buying a blue ribbon or a trophy really mean anything?"

 

The participant ribbons are really for the parents so they can say, "Ohhhhh, look you got a ribbon."

 

 

[Joni4TA]

We have a pretty poor District - so poor that we underestimated on the number of folks that would show up to our District Banquet. The District Committee made reservations at a local joint that serves up BBQ and salads. Well they kept shoving more and more people into the dining room by the time everyone showed up we filled the room and then some. It was OVER filled..... and the guy that actually got the District Award of Merit didn't get a place to sit down and eat his dinner. His wife gave up her seat too - so others could sit. many people didn't get a dinner that night even though they paid for a plate. The waitresses couldn't even get inside the room to serve..... it ended up the guy that earned the DAOM helped out by calling out people's names from the waitress tickets.... it was crazy, and hot as heck in there, a room so stuffed that the A/C was pointless. But you could see WHY the guy who got the Dist. Award of Merit was nominated for that thing. Before he knew anything at all about the fact he was the recipient, he was giving up his seat so others could sit, he was helping the waitresses serve others their meals, he was exactly the kind of person you want to think about getting such an award. Like I said some people didn't even get to eat at all or were missing their salads, or whatever.... money makes a huge difference! I agree..... it seems sometimes like money is a focus point. Because if you don't have money you can sure tell! This guy that got the award clearly didn't pay his way into it, but I hope the District does a better job, and is a little more generous next year - and chooses a different place to have their banquet. Come to find out, the owner of the restaurant is a friend of someone on the District Committee... so obviously someone was scratching their back bringing them all that business like that!!! I have to wonder, why didn't any of that back-scratching make it to the hard-working folks that actually make that district what it is instead of all the hierarchy pork having a nice cushy seat up at the head table??? And yeah those guys all have knots and spiffy uniforms. Us guys down at the unit level are lucky if we can afford the 2 for 1 switchbacks on clearance! lol

[Gold Winger]

Hmmm . . . interesting story. Why don't you folks do what we do? That's require everyone who wants to attend the district dinner respond by one week before the dinner. That way the planners can plan. There are usually a few extra but for the most part, everyone who is planning on comming responds.

 

 

 

[Crew21_Adv]

Fellow Scouters,

 

 

I think knots are a cool way of recognizing Scouting adults for their work with Scouts, specifically the working class Scouter, immediately working as a direct unit Scout leader.

 

I read about a new PTC knot. I can understand the purpose of knots, and I personally like knots. Mrs Crew21_Adv calls me a Mexican Field General (apologies to any Mexican military officers or our hispanic Scouts, which may be offended) I really don't understand why a PTC knot though, when there is a temporary pocket patch for attending PTC. Also the Philmont Arrowhead patch and the Philmont Bull. Even the Philmont belt and buckle. They demonstrate participation and completion.

 

Heck, I admit it, I am jealous at seeing friends sport the Philmont Arrowhead patch on their shirt pocket, and wish I had one myself. I jokingly give my current Scoutmaster a hard time. He got to be a Philmont Ranger during his college summer break. How cool is that?! I wish I had that opportunity years ago, and his Philmont patches.

 

 

FireKat had asked

 

Has natl gone into the world of money means more than anything else?

What happened to its for the boys??

Lastly, why does a quality council, unit, district be directly related to numbers or money? How does that help the individual boy?

 

 

Has natl gone into the world of money means more than anything else?

No. But money is important. Without Finances, we wouldn't have a BSA. Same way as, if I didn't tithe at church the doors would close. Same as, if no one paid state taxes, the roads would completely wither away and the teachers would quit teaching. We simply need finances to maintain a BSA.

 

Same with many other countries Scouting organizations.

 

What happened to "it's for the boys"??

I believe it still is. And, training certainly helps. I know many trainers and unit Scouters, that attempt to make training as affordable as possible, while delivering a quality product. Going as far as seeking grants and donations to offset individual cost.

 

 

Lastly, why does a quality council, unit, district be directly related to numbers or money? How does that help the individual boy?

If there was no numbers or money, there would be no DE, no SE, no paraprofessional, no Scout store, no Summer Camp, no Day Camp, probably no Camporees.

 

Without finances, All of our advancement, tour permits, program helps, everything would come out of National. If anything at all.

 

How does money help the individual boy? It helps to bring the program closer to the boy. Expedites paperwork. Allows for local Scouting events in the community. At least I believe it helps.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Eamonn]

Without wishing or intending to upset anyone.

I find the term " Buying scouting" to be in very poor taste.

What I choose to do with my hard earned cash is up to me. How I choose to spend or not spend it is also up to me.

 

I have a lot of friends who because of what they do for a living are unable to volunteer their time as leaders. A few are a lot more comfortable than I am!!

They support Scouting and the aims of Scouting by doing what they can. They donate their hard earned cash.

I do wear my James E. West knot. I think it's on a couple of my uniform shirts.

I have over the years given money to support Scouting. I think I have been blessed that I have enough money that I can afford to do so.

I never, ever in a million years seen what I was doing as " Buying scouting" and to be very honest I am offended that anyone would think or say that I was.

Since my wife became ill I have cut down a lot on the time I spent doing "Active Scouting". Where as at one time I somehow thought that missing a District Round Table meeting was in my book almost the same thing as missing Mass!! Now I rarely attend. I'm happy not to attend the dinner meetings and pay $50.00 for overcooked chicken. I think myself lucky not to have to drive a few hundred miles to attend a meeting that was as interesting as watching paint dry. I'm still frugal enough to think of all the money I'm saving on gas!!

I don't see myself as being rich, I still see my self as working.

I was happy to leave all that talk about class on the other side of the pond.

I do thank the Good Lord that I have a job that I enjoy a lot and I like to think it's a job where maybe I'm doing some good.

 

My commitment to Scouting and the youth we serve is just that. - My commitment! I'm doing what I think is best. I really try not to judge others by the amount of time they spend or don't spend. In part because I don't know what else is going on in their homes, families, jobs and also because it's none of my business.

For anyone to look down their nose at what someone else is doing is just wrong.

To in any way accuse someone who is donating what they can to Scouting of " Buying scouting"

Is in my book the very same thing.

How dare you!!

Eamonn.

 

[BadenP]

Eamonn

 

When someone is given award after award that most scouters spend a lot of time earning the correct way, when someone has not devoted one minute of their time to helping youth in a unit or on a district, and all they ever do is fill out a check put in the SE's pocket at a dinner, then are given unit leader awards, WB beads that is plain and simply buying scouting whether you like it or not.

 

It is a slap in the face to all those scouters who work their butts off year after year giving up family and vacation time to help out in a scout unit and contribute what they can financially to support the council. You can feel insulted all you want but it is a travesty that because you can write a check for $10,000 - $50,000 all the rules and requirements do not apply to you. If you think this is justified then I think you need to re examine your feelings here.

[FScouter]

You sound like a very bitter person.

[BrentAllen]

Hmmmm. In my district, it is a group of district committee members who decides who gets the DAM, not the SE. In my council, it is the Troop Guides who decide when tickets have been completed, not the SE.

 

A $10,000 - $50,000 check will allow a lot of boys to go to camp who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford to go.

[evmori]

Every organization has stuff like this. It helps promote the organization and also raises a little cash. I see nothing wrong!

[BadenP]

Not bitter F Scouter just reporting the facts in one council, besides isn't that like the kettle calling the pot black. If you want to reward these deep pocket contributors thats fine but there are much better ways than to give away scouter awards that have to be earned by everyone else, the council could create some special awards like my current council does.

 

Don't insult the hard working volunteers and what they do and awards they spend years earning and just give them away for a check, that makes those awards meaningless.

[ASM857]

Baden P

I understand your frustration but as I tell my scouts unless youv walked in thats scout shoes how do you know what they have or havent done. An example we had a group of boys working on citisenship in the community, they planned a project for the local park, and 2 scouts didn't show. Well when they got thier badge they were saying they hadn't earned it, but they had done landscaping and yard work for a retirment center in the area. So they had preformed the requirment not the same as the other scouts. It bothers me when Scouts or Scouters are less than cordial because of a resentment or envy of someone elses position.

 

Thanks for letting me rant

YIS

Doug

[DYB-Mike]

Hi folks,

 

Clearly we can use, and should be grateful for, large monetary donations, or any kind of donation for that matter, be it land, buildings, equipment and so forth.

 

As it has been pointed out, maybe its the only way a busy person can show their support of scouting or their appreciation for what scouting may have done for them in the past.

 

That being said, I have to agree with BadenP that to give an award that is normally earned through active service or completing certain goals (Wood Badge) doesnt seem right. I wouldnt go as far as saying that the person is buying scouting, just that the gesture (donation) and the means of recognition are incongruous.

 

I would assume Councils have the latitude to create special philanthropic awards. Do awards currently exist that are more geared for philanthropic rather than active service? That would seem to make the most sense and eliminate any misunderstanding as to a persons contribution to Scouting. Money or service, each is needed to make the pack [or troop] go.

 

YIS

Mike

 

[emb021]

"Do awards currently exist that are more geared for philanthropic rather than active service?"

 

These already exist and have been mentioned. And there is nothing stopping council from creating local awards to recognize donors as well (and many do).

 

There is the James West Fellowship Award ($1000), 1910 Society, and Founder's Circle Award ($100,000). The FC has 4 levels as well.

 

There are also a set of recognitions for those given deferred donations as well.