Atheist / Agnostic Scout?

[skeptic]

Watch it Mark S. Our resident proto-atheist may quibble with you.

[MarkS]

Let 'em quibble. He'll have no more weaponry than Vizzini.

[Gunny2862]

First, wow, good answers in the majority!

 

Second, Avery,

you sound like an agnostic - one who doesn't know - to me. Usually this implies that you are a searcher - and open to the idea of a deity or a god or even just a higher power. The BSA as an organization usually leaves this as an open place for you to search and seek out the answers you are/should be looking for. If that, as I understand BSA's stance, is the case then you are definitely someone who should stay in Scouts as you seek those answers.

 

If you just want to leave and want a little controversy to hide behind as you run away then you clearly aren't applying the Scout law to your life. You aren't even being Trustworthy to yourself - just say what you really think. You aren't being Loyal to yourself - by having to make up or create a smokescreen for your actions. You aren't being Helpful to your Troop by placing them in the crossfire of the controversy you would create by using these excuses as your reason for leaving.

You can see the rest, I'm sure, you seem very articulate and thoughtful.

 

You've gotten good advice from the others, a couple of additional things as you search for "truth".

Be aware that any one who has a belief will be colored by that belief and you need to understand that they may not be intentionally trying to color or shade their belief in a more positive light to mislead you but that it is a natural outcropping of their belief.

Be open to looking at the big questions across each established faith you examine. What answers do they give as to: Why are you here? What is your purpose? Why do YOU exist? How did you get here? Is there an afterlife? Is it important?

 

Personally, I think Jesus is the real deal - some of his followers I can do without (including myself at times ) but you can't really expect flawed humans to fully live up to the example set by a deity, even one expressing himself as a human while retaining his deity. I'm a little bit of a Grace addict - I seem to NEED it every day.

 

Good luck as you search - but if you are just searching for controversy to cover your escape from Scouting - drop it, get real for your own sake and just say what you really think.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gunny, the BSA legal website says atheists AND agnostics can't join the BSA.

[Gunny2862]

Merlyn,

in this topic where you have clearly displayed your expertise and posted links to the relevant citations in the past, I am sure you are correct.

However, as we have seen all across these forums, the practices of Scouting in communities tends to occasionally veer from the vision of the Corporate/ Legal offices.

 

Anyone who has never had a "crisis" of faith has simply never examined the beliefs their parents(or social group) exposed them to. I would contend that at the moment of time that that examination takes place that most who do examine their faith are momentarily agnostic. Should they then dis-enroll themselves from Scouting and re-enroll themselves immediately, even if it only takes a second?

 

As an element of character, ones religious beliefs are always open to examination by each person. That decision to believe or not believe in any thing is a deeply personal choice and while one is forming their ideas I would also say they should be allowed to pursue Scouting. Now as to whether or not they get to go on to pass their Eagle BOR, well, now we are inserting Corporate back into the deal but, in theory, atheists are very different than agnostics and I would say that Scouting is an ideal place for agnostics to examine those parts of their life with the peers who are also dealing with these issues (vocally or not) as they grow (hopefully) in the other areas that Scouting is trying to grow them in.

As to atheists - well, I may have different views than Corporate - Scouting might be good for them too.

Exposure to competing ideas occasionally changes minds or at least makes one think. I am not for close-mindedness in most things. However, like yourself I am sure there are things you have come to believe - I doubt you rope yourself to your house until you have arrived at your car, trusting that gravity will not let you down for example.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well Gunny, if we're going to say what happens in practice in the BSA, you can say that agnostics, atheists, and gays can join, because you can find BSA units that ignore those policies. I've also discussed (at least in rec.scouting.issues, not sure about scouter.com) on what the BSA policy means with regard to someone whose beliefs my be in flux; can they stay in the BSA if they're an atheist for a day? A week? A year? Or should they quit & re-enroll within the same hour? I haven't seen any definitive answers on how long, or how "doubtful" members can be.

 

I disagree that "atheists are very different than agnostics;" agnosticism is orthogonal to atheism/theism. You can be atheist and agnostic, or a theist and agnostic. Gnostic/agnostic refers to a person's opinion on what sorts of knowledge of god(s) is possible, while theist/atheist refers to whether a person believes god(s) exist. A person can believe in god(s) (or not), yet believe that humans can't have any real knowledge of god(s). But lots of people use 'agnostic' to mean 'not 100% sure on whether god(s) exist or not,' which would probably label the majority of Americans as agnostic. I don't consider that usage to be very accurate or useful.

[MarkS]

Sometimes I think we use the term agnostic incorrectly. A person who says they are uncertain or do not know if God exists is not agnostic.

 

An agnostic believes that the truth of the existance of God is unknown or unknowable.

[Gunny2862]

Definitions are useful.

It would be nice if they all aligned. But the more of those silly University classes I take the more definitions I find for what I thought before were common words in common use, in any field.

 

Now that you have given us yours, your own definitions of atheism and agnosticism seems to convolute any possible understanding without going to extremes to clarify exactly what combination of the convolution one is talking about.

 

True, more and more Americans are claiming not to be "sure" about "which" god but the majority of them are still theistic.

 

Agnosticism for me will retain the common meaning - in the hinterlands between atheism and theism but generally examining theism for an answer. Once one settles on eliminating Theism as a possibility I would choose to classify that person as a Atheist. An Agnostic-Atheist(Atheist) would tell me they were unsure about what "worldview" to choose but that all choice must be outside of theism(for them) and I am unable to detect why one would need to make this distinction in most discussions - surely atheist suffices in this case. An Agnostic-Theist (Agnostic)is still looking for god. At least in the way I'm going to talk about it.

 

If we really need to pick nits please give me the advance warning and I'll try to play. Although I do tend to prefer dynamite to scalpels, but I'll try if it must be done.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I think the important question is "what does the BSA mean when their legal website says atheists and agnostics can't be members?" It doesn't really matter what anyone here means by the terms, as far as BSA membership goes, unless they are put in the position of enforcing their no atheists/agnostics policy. But that kind of goes along with having religious requirements for membership; you really ought to have clear requirements, so people can figure out if someone meets them or not.

[Gunny2862]

That is correct! A great question for BSA

 

But I think the important question in this thread is did Avery get enough input to make any decisions?

 

Avery?

[MarkS]

I think it's pretty clear that when the BSA refers to agnostic, they're referring to a person who has adopted Agnosticism and believe that the existence of God is unknown or inherently unknowable (at the expense of faith). They're using the old school definition.

 

Polls and studies have shown that 75-85% of the US population believes in God.

[MarkS]

I think Avery was done a couple pages ago.

 

Not sure if he got his answer. In one of his last posts he asked, "I would very much like to learn more about various religions, especially Christianity and other similar religions. But I am not exactly who I can get honest and unbiased answers from. Anybody got any suggestions?"

 

Avery... my suggestion would be to take some philosophy classes or read some books on philosophy, especially world religions, and go to church (keeping an open mind but don't drink the Kool-Aid). Faith is something you experience. It's not something you learn about. The only place you'll get an unbiased answer is in yourself.

 

You can't get any answers about God by looking at science. It's a mutually exclusive field of study.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I think it's pretty clear that when the BSA refers to agnostic

 

I think it's clear as mud. Buddhists are OK, but not atheists; what about atheist Buddhists? A rock or a stream is an acceptable god, but I'm pretty sure most atheists and agnostics agree that such things exist.

[MarkS]

Are you sure the problem isn't that you don't really understand Buddhism? There are a ton of tenets to figure out.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Mark, I've corresponded with Buddhists who have stated that some Buddhists are atheists and some are not. However, I can't tell from the BSA whether Buddhist atheists are officially permitted as members or not. In fact (and I've posted this link in Issue before), the chairman of the Buddhist Committee on Scouting, Victor Iwamura, wrote that in dealing with the BSA about Buddhism and scouting that "We are trying to influence the powers that be here but it is a difficult struggle," which suggests some problems. That link is at http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting.issues/msg/15ed2e62c872ccad