Opinions, Please (long)

[Anonymous]

After yet another chaotic, pointless Thursday evening in the gym, I would appreciate everyone's take on the following situation:

 

I am living through the death of a long established Troop. It is a painful thing to watch and I seem to be powerless to reverse, or even slow, the dying process.

 

First, a little background. When my oldest son wanted to be a Scout I was thrilled. I was a Cub Scout/Boy Scout for nine years, finishing as a Life Scout, Brotherhood OA and SPL. He joined Cubs, and after receiving his AOL, joined this Troop along with three of his fellow Webelos. The four others went to the brother Troop to the Pack, but my son and the remaining three wanted a more adventure oriented experience as opposed to an Eagle Mill.

 

Everything went well for about a year. The SM was a great guy (although his son wasn't really with the program) and all the boys liked and respected him. He was organized and delegated the program to the older Scouts. They, in turn, delegated to the younger Scouts and everyone was engaged. My son's Patrol thrived, and the crossovers were soon joining in the higher level camping excursions with the older Scouts. The new Scouts earned rank and position quickly. We camped frequently, and the outdoor skills came rapidly and easily. The Committee recruited me as an ASM early on, which I accepted readily. I did IBSLT at their request - it turned out to be a whole lot of nothing IMHO - but that's another story.

 

Then, late last summer, things started to change. The SM had started working his ticket and had less time for the Troop. Camping went from every month to every other month. Meetings were less organized, the SM started missing meetings, and the Troop seemed almost adrift.

 

In November, a member of the Committee approached me about taking the job of SM. My response was that I didn't want to usurp the existing SM - the boys revered and respected him. She told me that family issues were taking a lot of his time. I decided that I would give the job two years, and I indicated this to the Committee.

 

In early January, the Committee Chair announced to the Troop that, with the blessing of the Committee and the CO, she was taking over as SM.

 

To say that the boys were stunned would be an understatement. The senior Scouts were in open revolt and the younger Scouts have had little to no guidance from the older boys since.

 

The new SM is a micro-manager. I try to have a quick (5 minute) PLC after each meeting, but the boys just don't seem to care anymore. She (the SM) doesn't care what the PLC thinks - SHE will set the agenda for the next meeting. She has made it clear that she will be APPOINTING the next SPL. I am trying to work with her, but she doesn't want my help anymore than she wants the Scouts' help.

 

I have been talking (on the side out of necessity) to the senior Scouts, trying to get them back in the fold. They're telling me that they don't have any input as regards the program anymore. The PLC tells me they can't even lead their Patrols anymore, let alone the Troop. They say they wanted me as the new SM. I tell them that I'm still here and I'm not going anywhere and try to explain the politics involved here. The Committee and the CO select the SM, and they just wanted her over me. The boys aren't buying it.

 

The Committee has reorganized and is now entirely female. The SM is female. The two other ASM's are female. I'm the only male Scouter in this Troop. The boys keep coming to me, and I think the SM is starting to resent it. She has reminded me on a couple of occasions that she is my boss.

 

So there it is. In just over six months a Troop with a proud 40 year history is in the death spiral. I have met privately with the SM for cocktails. I've tried to explain the boy run program to her. I've told her that she has my support (and she does), but to go from boy led to adult led in a matter of a couple of months is a dramatic change. She doesn't see things the way I do. She says transitions are always tough, but truly believes things will smooth themselves out. I hope so, but personally don't share her optimism. She is an attorney, and I suppose she has an idealistic perspective of things. I'm an operating engineer, and I guess I'm just a lot more pragmatic. I feel like I'm bailing the Titanic with a coffee can.

 

I'm ready to take my boy and walk away while there's still something to walk away from. We've discussed it, and he doesn't want to leave his buddies. But he doesn't want a female SM. None of the boys do. And more than that, they don't want a micro-managing SM. They want to operate as Patrols.

 

Is this Troop worth saving? I'd like to think so, but I'm probably wrong.

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Welcome to the Forums...

 

It looks like, from here, you're doing the right things in trying to educate and coach. Granted, we only have your view of things.

 

What you choose to do comes at two levels ... one for you, and one for your son:

 

- Is he having fun and learning from Scouting in this Troop? If he is, the time is "not yet" to forego this Troop. If he is no longer having fun, then it's time to have him look for the transfer.

 

- Have you decided that education of the new SM and the new CC isn't going to enable change to using the 8 Methods? If so, when you choose to move your son, get the transfer dealt with, then ask for a cup of coffee with the COR and the Unit Commissioner. Explain... quietly, rationally, logically, the challenges which brought you to a transfer. If possible, document each challenge.

 

- Finally, when you get to your sons' new Troop, volunteer to be a Member of Committee until you're a known entity. Let your work gain a new reputation. If anyone confronts you about the old Troop, simply say: "Please consult the COR at Brand X Chartered Partner."

 

Now, if you're not yet at the point of no return, keep plugging at educating the 8 Methods... take your new SM to Roundtable, get her in a conversation with a SM who you know runs a good shop. Let him help dissuade her.

[Gold Winger]

First stop, talk to your unit commissioner and the COR, tell them the situation.

 

I only have your side of the story (every story has two, sometimes three sides) but it sounds like the current SM doesn't understand the SMs job which is to teach leadership to the SPL and PLC and is not to "run the troop."

 

Sometimes you gotta do what is best for you and your son. Maybe it is time to vote with your feet. You son doesn't have to abandon his buddies, they can go with them.

 

 

[Gunny2862]

Every Troop is worth saving.

 

Are you the person who can do it?

 

If your Institutional Head(IH) and Chartered Organizational Representative(COR) are onboard with the new Scoutmaster(SM) and are aware of how she is changing the program, you may get no traction here.

 

If they understand Boy Scouting and aren't aware, and are willing to buck this current SM, then you may find yourself with a Troop and no Committee and no Assistant Scoutmasters(ASM's).

 

If situation 1, then I would start shopping Troops with my son. But, as John-in-KC wisely suggested - feedback or an exit interview with the COR is an excellent choice. As is not poisoning your new Troop with bad stories of the old one.

 

If situation 2, then you must ask yourself if YOU are ready to take this on. And are your Scouts able to do enough functions that you can do it with their help.

I am not familiar with the term IBSLT, mostly the I part. Does this mean you are "Trained" or have just completed Scoutmaster Specific training? If you choose to take this project on I fully endorse getting Trained and asking your COR to ensure that any remaining or incoming Committee members get trained - their classes are much easier(and fewer) than yours and gives them a little insight in to what Boy Scouting is supposed to be.

 

Good luck! Let us know how it goes...

[Beavah]

Anonymous, welcome to da forums, eh?

 

Quick question: before da transition, had the CC (now SM) had any active involvement with the operations/kid contact side of the program? It's been my experience a lot of times that a SM should never be appointed out of the committee unless he/she is a known quantity to the boys. Everyone, youth and adults, should have an opportunity to evaluate the person in the field before makin' a decision. It's really tough when a CC just says "I'm gonna take it", because it sets up this sort of situation where there's a lot of adult ego and no way out without losing youth and adults.

 

These things are tough, eh? From a learnin' perspective, I think yeh want to guide the boys to channel their energies well. Rather than just gripin', they should learn how to express their opinions properly to make change. The scouts should be able to present a petition and their argument to da committee. They should learn how to send a couple of representatives to meet with the COR and IH. They should consider just continuin' as they had been, and givin' the SM an agenda that they developed and were following. Organizin' and workin' the system respectfully is something all youth should learn - as well as when to accept the verdict.

 

I don't know if yeh can steer your SM toward training and WB. To be honest, that may or may not help, but it's worth a try. I don't know if yeh can talk to some of the other dads and encourage 'em to start coming out to help, for the sake of balance. I don't know if yeh can talk to the old SM and have him come back for a "joint" six months or year with you, but he might be da only one with the social capital who can gently displace your current SM. I don't know if yeh have an active commish who can help finesse a solution. But I'd quietly pursue all these options while remainin' supportive of the SM as best yeh can.

 

Ultimately you, too, have to accept da verdict, and then make your own personal/family decision whether to seek greener pastures. But I'd take time to gently and respectfully pursue or encourage the rest.

 

B

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[highcountry]

This sounds a little similar to teh CC from helll situation I had to get fixed about a year ago but with some differences.

 

The CC I ahd to get removed was possibly more abbrasive and to be honest, down right evil base don the description you gave. I however had 100% support from every scout, every parent, every committe memeber and every ASM to get her removed. It was not an easy job and I had to put up with her abrasive ways until she got booted but since everyone was on board I knew we could win the fight before collateral damage occurred in the troop. Your situation though sounds like teh committee and other ASM's support the problem SM, that is going to be an uphull battle and will likely result in division and damage in the troop, even if you were to win out.

 

The manner in which she took over as SM was not in any way proper and it appears she is not willing to listen, change or get training, consider other views etc so those avenues look to me like an excersise in futility. You already have scouts deciding on theri own the situatiuon is not a good one and they are looking up to you.

 

At the end of the day, this is for the fun and growth for the boys, the situation you describe does not sound like fun, and they won't be learning much leadership skills either, ie.....there is no win in the situation as it is or is likely to be going forward.

 

Based on assuming what you describe as being an accurate assesment of what is happening, there appears one good choice....find another unit and leave. It is sad a 40 year old unit will likely fold but it is not your doing and it is not your responsibility to put up with a bad situation to uphold history and legacy.

 

I would be looking for other units for myself and my son and transfer as soon as possible. I would also not be shy to tell those scouts (On the side) who were not happy with the current unit where you will be going, since theuy look up to you they will likley follow. Let the SM and those who support her mistaken path deal with the mess that occurs as the scotus evaporate out of the old troop. It's the bed they made so they can sleep in it. Have your son, yourself and the scouts that change units have a fun and beneficial experience, lord knows we have to deal with enough poitics in our jobs and scouts shouldnot have their time and experience waasted on messes like the one you describe.

[Bob White]

Is the troop worth saving? That is a decision only the charter organization head can make. The scout troop is a service activity of the CO and whether it continues or not is up to the organization head.

 

Is the program worth doing correctly? Yes it is, but that will only happen based on the skills and integrity of the adults selected to lead it. In order for one person to successfully alter the direction of the unit you need to be in one of two positions, either the charter organization head or the charter organization representative.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[John-in-KC]

Two other comments...

 

If, in conversations, you get an understanding that the IH and/or COR are happy with this new SM, then quietly, graciously, and quickly depart. Scout units do belong to the Chartered Partner. If they're happy, it's time to leave.

 

I'd let your son tell his friends "we're moving, I think I'll have more Scouting fun at Troop 987..." You can't stop them from backstabbing you if they so choose, you can avoid giving them extra blades!

 

Please let us know how this works out.

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

Boy this is tough. Everyone has given good advice. I can say from my observations that this situation typically gets worse and these units usually loose their numbers rather quickly.

 

We are all different and I dont like to paint a broad stroke. IN ballance, women are as good (or bad) at leading in Boy Scouts as men. But, there is one thing that is 100% certain about women leaders, they never had the Boy Scout experience as a youth. And that is a huge difference.

 

I cant give better advice than already given, I can only ask: what motivation could this SM, or committee for that matter, have for changing the way they are presently doing things? What kind of experience do you want your son to have in scouting?

 

Barry

 

[Its Me]

 

Companies with long legacies that failed:

- Pan-am

- American Motors

- Woolworth's

- Author Anderson

- Sears

- And yes Enron

 

In all cases poor management over a period of time whittled away at the company's ability to adjust and react to the circumstances at hand.

Many people and not just one contributed to these failures. One man was seldom able to turn around a failing company even with board approval.

 

You do not even have board approval. Stop trying. Bad troops fail and new ones begin. Take photos and move on. Too much time will be spent trying to fight the resistance to change. Invest your time and your son's time more wisely than trying to fix a badly broken troop.

 

 

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Man this brings back memories of my troop as a youth. A great scoutmaster was let go because he could not be at every meeting due to work. The new one selected by the PTA, the CO, was the husband of the president of the PTA with no experience in scouting as a youth or an adult. The result was the troop turned into a military unit with him as sole dictator, he did not want any ASM's. All of us senior scouts walked out after a useless appeal to the PTA, none of us finished Eagle as we were disgusted by the whole situation.

 

So Anonymous my two cents is get your boy what he needs to enjoy scouting even if it is another troop, and I bet some of his buddies will join him. Your boy comes first not trying to beat a dead horse of a troop back to life. The time for talk is past now it's time for action before your boy decides to quit or becomes fed up with scouting. You can fight this troop battle another day.

[CalicoPenn]

Lots of advice about talking to the COR and the IH and the District Commissioner, etc. And that's good advice, most of the time, especially if it's behind the scene politics that's wreaking havoc.

 

But this time - the Scouts are rebelling. And we often forget when we toss out the mantra that Scouting is for the Boys, that Scouting IS the Boys - and nothing else really matters.

 

If the older scouts are openly rebelling and the younger scouts are now adrift, the time for chatting and being nice is over. You can easily toss up your hands and say it's over and bring your son over to a new Troop - but that only helps your son, and you don't seem to be the type to leave the other lads adrift.

 

Frankly, I would gather all the lads that are unhappy with the new direction of the troop, and their parents, and walk away to a different unit - or create a new unit. I wouldn't want to just leave without making sure that all the lads that want a Scouting experience get one.

 

Calico

[gwd-scouter]

A lot of good advice given here. But, there is one line in the original post that, to me, is very telling and none of the advice given will help. "But he doesn't want a female Scoutmaster. None of the boys do."

 

We only have one side of the story here. But, as a female SM myself, I can say that kind of resentment is clearly felt by your new SM. Maybe she is pushing back hard against it. Maybe that resentment is the reason your troop has gone from boy-led to adult-led in six months. Although, from reading the post, I can't see that your troop was so completely boy-led since because of the former SM absence, campouts decreased and meetings were less organized and the troop became "adrift." Seems that the former SM was very involved in directing the show, perhaps even setting the agenda. Delegated the program to the older boys? If that was really true, his absences should not have had such a negative impact on the Troop in such a short time.

 

"The older boys were in open revolt and the younger boys had little to no guidance from the older scouts since." Looks to me like the problem is not just your new SM. No amount of talking to her, getting her trained, and other advice given here is going to fix the fact that the older Scouts don't want her.

[evmori]

How involved is your COR? Are they aware of what is going on? Does she have a boy in the unit?

[ASM59]

Anonymous,

 

Welcome to the forums and sorry to hear of the difficulties. You've received lots of good advise so far, but my question is where is the Charter Organization (CO) and their representative (COR) on this whole matter? I'd be tempted to take the COR out for a cup of coffee and find out where they stand on this. Could it be that they don't even know what's going on? They might be shocked and totally back you up. If that's the case, there will be much hard work to recover from where the Troop finds itself now. However, if the CO/COR approves of what's happening, then like stated earlier, it's time to walk. I don't know about an organized exodus, but there's nothing wrong with your son talking to his buddies and if they and their parents decide to move too, so be it.

 

Keep us updated...

 

ASM59