Considering Buying a Bus - Want to understand basics

[Missouri_COR]

Our unit is toying with the idea of purchasing a bus or people movers for events (both local and far). We know we'll need to do fund raising and the such. My questions are more of a elementary or "how did you do it" nature.

 

We know that we will need people with CDLs. We already have that covered. Our CO has a couple of buses already, but they always seem to be booked when we want to borrow them (hence our desire to obtain one).

 

1) Where is the best place to obtain a bus (which also begs the question new or used)? What kind of costs am I looking at to obtain one?

2) What are annual maintenance costs associated with a bus?

3) Has anyone tried to have the CO pay to maintenance for the bus with the right to use it when you are not, but the scouts get first priority. I am aware every CO is different, but I am interested if this relationship can work.

4) What is the size that seems to work best for scouting functions?

5) Should you try and pull a trailer with it or not?

6) Do parents or leaders ever have a problem with the lack of seatbelts that buses sometimes present.

7) Do we remove some of the backseats for gear storage or leave all the seats in and use a trailer

8) With the fuels costs going up like they are, do you find you have more adult volunteers since there isn't wear and tear on their car or fuel costs?

 

What else do I need to be aware of or consider before moving forward

[Gold Winger]

It's all pretty simple . . .

 

The wheels on the bus go round and round. . . :-)

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll shut up now.

 

[Crossramwedge]

You have forgotten the one thing that kept us from getting a Bus.

Insurance. Cost prohibitive. For the little use the Bus would get, we found the insurance was to steep for us.

[GaHillBilly]

As an alternative, you might want to look at used diesel GMC Suburbans. These are 8/9 passenger vehicles with tremendous trailering capacity. No CDL, high ground clearance, anybody who's driven a full size pickup can drive them.

 

And . . . the price on these is falling like a rock.

 

I'm guessing that within the year you could pick up a couple of these -- good condition, 10 years old, ~80,000 miles -- for $8,000 for both, which is a fraction of what a good condition 16 passenger bus would cost. No real need to insure them beyond liability.

 

This is not something we've done in our small troop, just a gleam and hope in my eye.

 

GaHillBilly

[Trevorum]

I'd avoid used school busses like the plague (actually, that's curable these days). I've talked to several leaders at Philmont who had troop busses in the parking lot and response was terrifically mixed. Most said that maintenance and repair costs can be prohibitive, and now with the escalating cost of fuel, forget it!

 

I like GaHillBilly's idea. Those Suburbans are tough, much more affordable, more maneuverable, more insurable, and can often be repaired by an experienced dad in the troop.

 

The CO would clearly hold title to any such big ticket asset, so make sure you work closely with them from the start. They may love the idea or they may deep-six it.

[John-in-KC]

Who will pay for the Commercial Driver's Licenses and their training? CDL's aren't cheap, and imo, this is not a burden the youth should absorb?

 

Have you priced the insurance for a bus? It will come under the auspices of the Chartered Partner as the permanent entity (remember Scouting is licensed year to year). Who will pick up the tab for insurance? Again, the added cost of the burden is not something I would charge the youth membership when I was a COR.

 

Missouri Highway Patrol has fairly rigorous inspections for busses in school service. I don't know about busses in private service. Worth asking

 

Do you have a mechanic show willing to work on busses nearby?

 

Bottom line: Lots of homework, lots of decisions about after-purchase operations/maintenance costs... and who will absorb them?

[talen333]

Remember that your CO also will own your bus. You want to be very clear on the usage of it before you buy. They could look at it as another option available to them when all other buses are booked.

[scoutldr]

The idea of pulling a trailer behind a busload of kids and an amateur driver scares me. I don't know the experience level of your CDL drivers, but I'll bet they're not professionals. But that's just me. We have a used Suburban that was donated to the Troop (gas). Even that is expensive to maintain and gas is becoming prohibitive (8-10 mpg when loaded). One of the leaders registered it in his name and all the adults share the expenses when a big ticket item comes up.

[tagguy]

I had a used 15 passenger Dodge van for my troop for several years. That worked well for my small troop. Being scoutmaster at the time, I had it registered and insured in my name, and had the troop reinburse expenses with reciepts.

[GaHillBilly]

A couple of other comments . . .

 

CDL's: I've held a Class 2 CDL with all endorsements except tank trucks for about 15 years. The license wasn't that expensive 15 years ago, and I don't think it's terrible now, especially for just a bus or chauffeur's endorsement. Probably a Scouter ought to be reimbursed however. One caution: drivers who collect tickets should NOT get a CDL; it can cause problems all around.

 

15 passenger vans: These vans have rather weird handling, and are difficult to insure now (or so I've been told). Of the three vehicles mentioned (bus, Suburban, 15 seat van), I think the van is the hardest to drive safely under emergency conditions. By the way, a CDL is required for these vans.

 

Trailers: I've never been in an accident with a trailer, but I've had to do some advanced maneuvering on occasion with one. I think a heavy towing vehicle, with good tires and shocks, and a relatively light trailer is not hard to drive on the highway safely. Backing can take some practice, but if someone's willing to learn, they can. (Personally, I'd rather teach a woman who's not too scared, rather than a man who's all 'I got it'.)

 

Gas milage: Milage on gas-powered Suburban type vehicles is notably poor. But, drivers of work trucks and vans of similar weights running DIESEL engines have reported 15 - 18 mpg to me. If you figure 15 mpg Diesel (@ $5/gal), a 150 mile round trip is still only about $6 per person.

 

GaHillBilly

[Missouri_COR]

That was about the fuel mileage I was guessing at. We typically have at least 50 - 60 people (youth and leaders) going camping and the such. That is usually 8 vehicles which is about $200 in fuel for 100 miles round trip. We think the bus would be about $50. Plus all the boys would be together and we could do things together on the way.

 

Anyone have any strong opinions on where to obtain a bus, new or used (type of place, not an exact business)? What about leasing a bus instead of buying for just the longer trips and using cars for the shorter trips.

[Stosh]

We rent 15-passenger vans and pull trailers on an as-needed basis. It is the least expensive and one doesn't need a CDL until the passenger load is 16 passengers. They are easier to maneuver and such than a bus. Shop around on the vans, the cost varies a great deal. We can rent a van for about $600/week and don't start any mileage charges until we go over 1,000 miles. $500/week for a 12-passenger van. Getting 30 people from point A to point B is a lot easier renting than the cost of buying. The cost of fuel is reasonably similar per person between a small bus and 2 vans. One also has the added safety of seatbelts for everyone in the van. I've hauled trailers behind passenger vans for years and never had a problem until I pushed speeds beyond 55 mph. The only bad part about driving that slow is you never have any great campfire stories to tell about harrowing experiences on the road and you're always the last one to get to camp.

 

Stosh

[GaHillBilly]

50 - 60 people?? Gee, I was thinking mini-bus, and you were talking school bus!

 

But, even with a school bus, you'll need TWO buses, not one. The full size buses used at the school where my wife teaches are pretty full with 45 elementary school kids WITHOUT gear. If you're able to get 30 people plus gear, I'd be a little surprised. Plus those bus seats get pretty uncomfortable pretty quickly.

 

Doing the math:

 

8 passenger vehicles averaging 7 people each @ 17 mpg for 100 miles works out to 47 gallons of gasoline, or $188 at $4/gallon. Cost per person, @ 56 people is $3.35.

 

2 diesel school buses, averaging 30 people each @ 7 mpg for 100 miles works out to 28.5 gallons, or $142.50 @ $5/gallon. Cost per person, @ 60 people, is $2.38.

 

Not any savings there that will get people all excited. You could probably save more getting some refrigerators and freezers to stock / save troop food.

 

And, I don't know where you camp, but getting a full size school bus into many of the places were we camp would take an exceptionally skilled driver, even when it's possible.

[SSScout]

Many good comments. Listen to blake47. The cost of KEEPING a bus must be balanced against the USE of the bus. Suburbans are cheaper in all categories. Renting vans or busses can be cheaper if the useage is rare. Our church owns a set of summer camp properties and a traveling camp ("Teen Adventure") and so owns a small fleet of busses. The youngest is 1996. Bought because they are used, and in the off season, rented out to other affiliated schools and meetings. This entails training counselors to obtain their CDL/Passenger endorsement. They specifically got busses without airbrakes (another endorsement). Insurance. Training. Licensing. Regular, periodic maintenance. Who's in charge of maintenance? No towing, too complex. Roof racks or rear seats removed for cargo.

 

Consider not how often the bus might be used, but how long it will sit?

 

Put the OUT back in SCOUT>

 

 

[Oak Tree]

I assume that most troops would find owning a bus to be a prohibitive operation for a variety of reasons. And those are represented in some of the comments here. But nevertheless a number of troops do own them. We see them at summer camp every year. I had a long conversation with one of the guys from one of those troops, because I was curious about how they handled it.

 

They had bought their bus at auction from the school district. The guy I talked to was a mechanic in his day job, and he kept the bus running. So they got the bus cheap and had free labor for the upkeep. They were a big troop, and he said that they had gone camping in places where they could park one bus but wouldn't have been able to bring 8 cars (or whatever). I think they had a high ratio of Scouts to adults, and they often travelled fairly long distances. It can be hard to find lots of adults to do the driving for the long trips.

 

I don't think I've seen any of these buses towing a trailer. My guess is that they have a second car on the trip and it would tow the trailer. It's good to have another car along anyway.