The very last word.

[Beavah]

Yah, fgoodwin, I think I understand, eh? Folks should learn how to avoid burning the food, but it's impossible to come up with regulations that prevent all possible ways of burnin' food. And even if we could, they'd be so long that nobody would read 'em! Just because G2SS doesn't list jousting as unauthorized doesn't mean it's a good idea. That's why I'm more in favor of education than policy.

 

I think one of da reasons yeh confused me is that in American jurisprudence, things work the way GoldWinger suggests. There is a presumption of freedom. Law and regulation are to be narrowly construed. Anything that is not clearly and expressly prohibited is allowed. That's the right way to read policy in the Land of the Free.

 

As a result, that's very much a part of our cultural norms whenever we talk about or make any policy/regulation, even in a kids' program. Perhaps it shouldn't be, but it's so deeply ingrained in American citizenship that I reckon we're stuck with it. That's another reason why I think emphasizin' understanding and developin' good judgment with examples and sharing is so much more important than "policy."

 

B

 

P.S. Calico, I think as a good Christian, da last word is "Amen." Revelations 22:21

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[fgoodwin]

OK, I think I got it.

 

I like to think of BSA regs & policies like a recipe -- the recipe tells you how to cook your meal, but even though there is some flexibility in the ingredients, it doesn't (and cannot) list everything you shouldn't add.

 

For example, the recipe does not prohibit you from pouring dirt or sand in your meal, but use of some common sense suggests that you don't do that. Still, there will be those who say, "The recipe doesn't prohibit me from pouring dirt or sand in my meal, so it must be OK!"

 

Well, it might OK for that person, but I won't be joining them for that meal!

 

Thanx

[packsaddle]

I tend to agree with Beavah on this topic. I would add that all of this is much easier the better you know the boys. And that takes leaders willing to spend the time and who care about knowing the boys. The boys really do notice and they really do appreciate it, even if they don't necessarily acknowledge it.

[Beavah]

Can't say I've ever met anybody anywhere who thought it was a good idea to put dirt or sand into a meal. In fact, I'd never even think to consider that if somebody invited me to a meal.

 

Now, there are some folks with odd tastes, eh? Who eats hot sauce with eggs? And grits! Talk about eatin' sand! Why would anyone ever eat a grit?

 

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

Careful now...them's fightin' words about grits. I love grits. I'd eat them every meal, if they're made right. Maybe I need to add a footnote to my heaven myth to incorporate grits somehow.

[Gunny2862]

No one but a Yankee ever ate "a" grit.

 

Hot Sauce on eggs is a great idea if your eggs are a little long in the tooth. Mine never last that long. They go to good with grits, and a a little sausage, I like my sausage with sage.

[Gold Winger]

An old westerner once told me that sage was added to sausage to cover the taste of meat starting to turn. Kinda like your hot sauce and eggs.

 

 

[Gunny2862]

GW, I totally believe that.

But I like it anyway...

[Kudu]

The "very last word" is that nowhere else on earth do Scouters embrace and celebrate their willful ignorance with more joy and abandonment than here in the United States.

 

You guys sound like a bunch of little Scouts sitting around the campfire using logic to deduce the habits of snipe beyond the details you were told by someone you trust.

 

In the rest of the world a Scouting association freely circulates its rules so that everyone knows them. Baden-Powell wrote 513 rules. No secrets.

 

A rulebook in Scouting is usually called the "PO&R" (Policy, Organization, and Rules). It is so common for non-Americans to have a copy of the rules, that when Scouters of different Scouting associations meet they often exchange PO&Rs to show how their programs work.

 

The BSA uses the pre-Gutenberg model: We rely on a centralized authority to keep us ignorant.

 

Maybe that is why most Internet Scouting forums are American. Duh!

 

In the olden days a Sponsoring Organization could simply order a copy of the rules. Even today we sometimes hear reports of copies being sold openly at a local Scout shop, but the people who start these stories always remain silent when requested to purchase a copy for someone else.

 

In most Councils if you want to view the book of rules you must explain to your local Scout Executive why you can't just take his word for it. If you can convince him that you are not a potential troublemaker he may allow you to read the book in the Council office under his supervision. Supervision is necessary because most Councils allow you to take notes but not to photocopy the text.

 

In America the government picks a corporation and guarantees it a monopoly on Scouting. To be a customer you must agree in writing to obey its rules sight unseen.

 

As far as I can tell, the desirability of being kept in place through a willful ignorance of the rules imposed by a state-imposed corporate monopoly is one of the very few things upon which liberals and conservatives agree.

 

The human brain is designed to detect patterns and give them meaning. Seldom does it recognize its own ignorance, so what it can not observe directly it often fills in with magical thinking.

 

The downside of such magical thinking is the assumption that you can deduce the program rules from the BSA publications: That when the BSA dumbs the Scoutmaster Handbook down from the 1,142 page third edition to the current 178 pages, there is a corresponding rule change for each and every program detail removed from each and every one of the 964 missing pages.

 

As if the official publication authors who attribute to Baden-Powell the American quotes featured so prominently in these missing pages are kept any less ignorant than us.

 

Kudu

 

[Eamonn]

Have to admit that I really haven't given the good old POR much thought since I crossed the pond.

I did a little while back visit the UK Scouts site to see if the "Outlander Promise" was still around!!

Having a rule book at hand is not a bad thing.

I'm not sure if it in any way keeps or prevents people who by nature break rules from breaking them?

I do at times think that here in the USA we do tend to be guilty of "Over-Thinking" Or trying to read more into something.

At times this becomes out of hand.

Of course it's been nearly 25 years since I crossed the pond and maybe things have changed?

 

I have visited several other Countries and seen how they do things. While not wanting to sound in any way political. Scouting here in the USA does seem to be more conservative than in other countries.

A few weeks back a very good pal of mine who lives in the UK but is moving to Utah to get married (He is a member of the LDS Church) was complaining (More of a rant than a complaint) about how since the changes in the UK things are not the same and to his way of thinking are not as good.

I think the fact that the new District Commissioner for the District he is in, is openly gay had a lot to do with it!!

He said that he can't wait to get involved with the BSA and went on to say that "Eagle is where it's at"!! Not sure if I really understand that!!

 

Back in the days when I was Scouting in the UK.

A time long before I ever heard mention of Vision and Mission statements or maybe they just weren't trendy at that time? If someone asked me the purpose of Scouting? I was able to give them the book answer:

"The Purpose of Scouting is the physical, mental and spiritual development of the young person to help them become a worth while member of society"

I kinda think everyone knew this, but it wasn't front and center when it came to running a Troop (Or other section)

Kids who joined did of course learn the Scout Promise (No not Oath) and the Scout Law. But I think we spent more time doing things to make the kids understand this than talking about it.

There were no BOR. No asking if Scout Spirit was in play.

I'm not saying one way is better or worse than the other.

For me it became a case of "When in Rome..."

A lot of things were very different.

I was talking with SE who had worked for the Boy Scouts of New Zealand, he said that it seemed to him that a lot of New Zealand Scouter's seemed to be looking at American Scouting and the Eagle Scout rank as maybe being better than the New Zealand Queen's Scout Award (I don't know if they still use that or not?)

I spent some time in Sweden, Norway and a lot of time in Holland. While I never really got involved in the organization or how things were run (That is what their rules and regulations were /are.) It did seem that Scouting was a lot more relaxed and maybe activity based than it is here in the USA.

The BSA does spent a lot more on Scouting than just about any other country I know of.

The BSA does seem to have a lot more adults involved in Scouting than most other places I know of.

I happen to think that when it comes to publications and Scouting material the BSA is really good, but with the web maybe things else where are catching up? I do like the UK Scout web sites and the material that is available there.

I'm not sure but I do feel the decline in membership is acting as a wake up call to the BSA. I'm also not sure how the BSA will react?

Some people do seem to want to turn the clock back and return to the ways that things were once done, while others seem to want more of a "Youth Club" type organization.

My big hope is that someone somewhere does take the time to see that real leadership is best learned by doing and not by sitting around talking about different styles.

I'm all for the Scout Oath and Law, but bashing a little fellow over the head because he acted like a kid and not like some sort of Angelic Boy Scout will only drive more youth away.

No kid ever joined Scouts for a character overhaul, they join for the fun and adventure.

We the adults do need to know how to lead, but we also need the outdoor skills to make the fun and adventure happen. Seems to me that for some reason a lot of the adults I see just don't have these skills and are not being taught them. This then becomes a catch 22, the Scouts they lead who hopefully will become the next generation of adult leaders are not going to have the skills and so i goes on.

There is or should be a balance.

I do hope we somehow manage to find it.

Eamonn

[BrentAllen]

I pity the fool that tries to eat a grit!

 

Hey Beavah, we even created cheese grits, for all those cheese-heads in Wisconsin! They are great with seafood for supper.

 

Kudu, the games and program plans have just been moved from the SM HB to the Troop Program Features. Add those pages in and see where you are. Of course, we could still use the old SM HB just as it is, as you would probably suggest. I don't think any of the boys in our Troop would go for the breakfast listed on page 762:

 

Prunes

Hot Cereal

Boiled Eggs

Bread & Butter

Cocoa

 

That book doesn't even mention grits! What were they thinking??

[Eamonn]

BrentAllen,

Prunes

Hot Cereal

Boiled Eggs

Bread & Butter

Cocoa

I'll take that over corn feed any day!

Ea

 

[BrentAllen]

You can have my share, Eamonn. I'd rather eat fried Spam!

 

Southern breakfast:

scrambled eggs

fried country ham

grits with red-eye gravy

homemade biscuits

Yum Yum!!

[Gold Winger]

Grits? Never saw the purpose. Corn bread, corn muffin, corn cake? Okay. Ground up corn, boiled and soaked with butter. Not for me.

 

My breakfast is a Slim Jim and a cup o' Joe.

 

As for the rules thing . . . I've found that "membership" organizations are big on secret publications. Also, the whole "membership" idea is a farce, just like a gym. We aren't members, we're customers. We have no say in the operation. We don't elect anyone to a position. The employees run everything and have the power.

 

Maybe if we could see the rules, we'd learn that the man behind the curtain isn't so great and wonderful afterall.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Ah, but GW, we do know the rules, at least the most important one, that is the Chartering Organizations hold the real power. And what do most BSA units do? Try not to involve the CO in the operation of the unit least the organization drop the Charter.

 

You are correct, we the volunteers have very little say in the direction of the program although we are the one running the program. If you want things to change, it will be through the CO's and units not being afraid to involve them in the program