G2SS - Policy vs non-Policy statements

[GaHillBilly]

In our recent exchange, Bob White correctly pointed out that in the G2SS **ONLY** the type in bold face represents BSA official policy. To quote from http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss.aspx, "Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies". The clear implication is, of course, that anything NOT in bold type is NOT a BSA "rule" or "policy", but only informational or suggestive.

 

Though this did not impact the point I'd made to Bob, it was nevertheless a fact I'd overlooked, and one that is potentially very, very significant for anyone trying to determine BSA requirements.

 

For example, the requirement to keep liquid fuel in a special box is well known, and I've seen it reproduced here, as well has having encountered it locally. But, if you examine the actual 'requirement', at http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss07.aspx#b, of the 13 points, only #3 is bold faced:

"3. Both gasoline and kerosene shall be kept in well-marked, approved containers (never in a glass container) and stored in a ventilated, locked box at a safe distance (a minimum of 20 feet) from buildings and tents. Keep all chemical fuel containers away from hot stoves and campfires, and store below 100 degrees (F)."

 

The container 'requirement' is #6, and is NOT in bold:

 

"6. Both gasoline and kerosene shall be kept in well-marked, approved containers (never in a glass container) and stored in a ventilated, locked box at a safe distance (a minimum of 20 feet) from buildings and tents. Keep all chemical fuel containers away from hot stoves and campfires, and store below 100 degrees (F)."

 

Thus, by the G2SS own interpretive preface, #6 is ONLY a guideline or suggestion, and NOT a requirement. This is puzzling, both because so many Scouters (myself included) seem to have overlooked the distinction, but also because the "SHALL" language -- normally, a regulatory key word -- is so often used in the 'guidelines'.

 

I could go on, but I've already ID'd a half-dozen local requirements ("the G2SS requires this, so we do too") that derive from plain face sections. Actually, I'm kind of pumped, in that this bold/plain distinction sets us free from a bunch of somewhat burdensome requirements.

 

But, I'm afraid it's too good to be true. Any comments or insight?

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

[Bob White]

First, this is nothing new. The distiction between BSA policy and Guidelines has been in the G2SS for many years.

 

If you look at the heading of this particular section you will note that it says "Guidelines for safely using chemical stoves and lanterns".

 

Knowing that not everything in a BSA manual is a policy might help you be less confused by the G2SS contents.

 

But realize that does not mean that the times you have seen the storage rule that is was not policy. What you need to realize is that the council can make anything they want "policy" at council activities or on council property. Just as some parks may require you to do things not in bold font in the G2SS, but to which you must comply in order to use their facilities.

 

The Bold passages in the G2SS are things that you as a unit leader must do, or not do, whenever your are leading a scouting activity. The rest are recommended practices unless a local authority deems otherwise

 

So the storage rules not being in bold font means that they are recommended practices for troop and patrol activities, when over-riding local policies do not exist.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Oak Tree]

GaHillBilly,

 

I think something got mangled in your post. When I follow your link, I find that #6 is in bold

 

6. Never fuel a stove, heater, or lantern inside a cabin; always do this outdoors. Do not operate a stove, lantern, or charcoal grill in an unventilated structure. Provide at least two ventilation openings, one high and one low, to provide oxygen and exhaust for lethal gases. Never fuel (example: all liquid fuels, charcoal. etc.), ignite, or operate a stove, heater, or lantern in a tent.

 

and #3 is not

 

3. Both gasoline and kerosene shall be kept in well-marked, approved containers (never in a glass container) and stored in a ventilated, locked box at a safe distance (a minimum of 20 feet) from buildings and tents. Keep all chemical fuel containers away from hot stoves and campfires, and store below 100 degrees (F).

 

Your point is still valid, but I was having a hard time following your examples (when both numbers listed the same text) :-)

 

[GaHillBilly]

My bad; I got the bold and un-bold mixed up.

 

But the question remains . . . there's a LOT of stuff that's been treated as required, that's apparently not.

 

Bob, I wasn't saying it was new, only that I and a whole bunch of other people had overlooked it, and that SM's and troops and whole councils are treating non-bold text as if it were bold. I know around here I could definitely stir up some hornets (or at least a few yellow jackets) by a few statements to the affect that this or that 'requirement' is non-bold, and thus only a BSA recommendation.

 

It would be interesting to grab the online version, and split it into two halves: the requirements and the recommendations. Doing so would open a lot of people's eyes.

 

GaHillBilly(This message has been edited by GaHillBilly)

[Beavah]

Yah, da whole thing really needs a re-write and a good editor, eh? "Shall" language in guidelines, "may" language in 'policy', some policy stuff that really doesn't belong, some outdated material. Problem is G2SS has always been a compilation of miscellany, not a stand-alone document. Da fuel-in-a-locked-box bit comes from NCS, which in turn comes from OSHA and various fire codes. It was never meant to apply to unit camping, but only to units like Sea Scout Ships that might be storin' significant amounts of fuel at a fixed base.

 

Yah, sure, GAHillBilly, it's just fine for yeh to do some educatin' around your area. Da Guide is meant to be a service to help units with their program, eh?

 

B

 

[Bob White]

Actually the Guide is supposed to keep adults from doing dumb things that get other people's children injured.

 

It's second purpose is to protect the assets of the council and national office from loss due to adults doing dumb stuff that injuries other people's children.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[GaHillBilly]

" da whole thing really needs a re-write and a good editor, eh? "Shall" language in guidelines, "may" language in 'policy', some policy stuff that really doesn't belong, some outdated material."

 

Hm-m-mh. Makes sense. I knew it was a compilation; I just hadn't thought through the likely implications of that fact, and haven't been around long enough to see its evolution.

 

I won't hold my breath, waiting for the re-write. But, I'm very happy to have the bold/plain tool in my box. I'll re-read the G2SS with that in mind, and hopefully, the next time some provision in the G2SS starts to cause problems, I'll be able to point to the G2SS preface, and then say, "Oh, you don't have to worry about that . . . it's only in PLAIN text!" ;-)

 

I'm envisioning a marked-up 'Get out of jail free' copy of the G2SS coming to meetings with me in the near future!

 

GaHillBilly

 

PS: In some ways -- and I hope I don't offend by saying this -- BSA is beginning to remind me of the Roman Catholic church: some official, somewhere, has officially taken almost every position that could be taken.

 

[Ohio_Scouter]

Well, GAHillBilly, you've just offended me. Care to explain that remark in a bit more detail?

[SctDad]

Like I said in another post. When reviewing what you are doing, ask your self this. "Is this stupid and will this get someone hurt?" If you have to ask this then it is probably stupid. But if it isn't and you can say that the chances of getting hurt are low, and this would be something that any other right-minded adult would allow thier boys to do, then it probably is OK. Lets use common sense. Hang gliding is not a Cub Sport. Base Jumping is not a scout sport. But to let cubs cook on an open fire with assistance and close supervision, (As the other topic was about) that could be considered acceptable.

 

I think that some people are getting too tied up in the EXACT rules and forgetting about common sense

 

Please excuse me if this offends you, I have no intention about doing that.

 

YiS

SctDad

[Bob White]

There are no "rules" regarding this activity.

 

You cannot say people are going overboard with rules when there are NO rules in the BSA on this activity.

[Beavah]

You cannot say people are going overboard with rules when there are NO rules in the BSA on this activity.

 

Are you sayin' that there's no rules in da BSA regarding base jumping?

 

B

 

[SctDad]

Shoulda saw that one coming.

[GaHillBilly]

Well, GAHillBilly, you've just offended me. Care to explain that remark in a bit more detail?

 

It was a poor analogy, and "SUBMIT"ing got ahead of my thinking. I should have realized that if I needed to say, "I hope this won't offend", I should have just left it out!

 

But I'm not anti-RC at all, even though I am Protestant. I've been enormously helped in my own faith by several RC writers, including Dorothy Sayers and her translation of Dante's Divine Comedy, Tolkien and particular his account of Purgatory (Leaf by Niggle), and Chesterton. And, I find myself constantly referring to the online Catholic Encyclopedia for help, as I consider various theological and ethical issues.

 

Again, it was a very poor comparison and unlikely to have explanatory value to anyone with a different background than my own (which pretty much means everyone else).

 

I'm not sure more explanation will help.

 

But I'll be glad to try if you wish. However it would be so off-topic here, and so likely to lead this thread astray, that I would ask you to let us discuss it in the Issues & Politics section rather than here.

 

 

GaHillBilly

[AvidSM]

Being a Roman Catholic myself, I sometimes do things which make me feel guilty about doing them, like not attending mass on Sundays. But, I know that it's something that is not that big of a sin and can be forgiven.

 

If you read the G2SS, and then go do something stupid while scouting, you should at least be thinking to yourself, "gee that was really stupid, I could have hurt someone, I better not do that again!" The dangerous people in scouting are the one's who have no clue if what they are doing is safe or not.

 

If there was a web site where Adult Leaders could post stupid ways in which their scouts got hurt while camping, whould you heed their advice? Would you care if some of the post were in bold lettering or not? Where do you think the rules in the G2SS came from? A persons animosity towards authority should not prevent them from learning from other peoples mistakes.

[Ohio_Scouter]

I agree. I'm certain that it was a poor analogy--whatever the unknown implication may have been--and that more explanation from you will not help. You've said quite enough already.