NYLT Changes in 2009

[BeaverIII]

Very interesting topic. Just 1 question. Is Wood Badge just about "the beads"?

 

Wally Hymel

Course Director

SR-957

March '09

[shortridge]

To clarify:

 

... So the "changes" to NYLT just involve little dangly things for grown-ups?

 

... And there aren't any changes coming in 2009 to the actual program? For youth?

 

Give me a break!

 

Talk about a tempest in a coffee pot.

[Kudu]

And there aren't any changes coming in 2009 to the actual program? For youth?

 

Only if the dangly things are not designed to attract Den Leaders in to teach fuzzy-bunny manager theory to Patrol Leaders and SPLs

 

Kudu

 

[Gonzo1]

WB beads should be for WB only. If I were to staff some training session in the future, and someone said, "hey gonzo, for staffing this event, you'll get a third bead, are you in?" I would decline the bead.

 

There are many forms of management - one minute, servant leadership, management by walking around, etc. For Boy Scouts, the Patrol Method should be the only method for leadership. Unfortunately, some parents get in the way.

 

Kudu, in this day and age, you will not find many parents willing to send their 11 or 12 year olds out into the woods or along a major highway without adult supervision. However, once at the destination, I'm all for separting the patrols by 100 yards.

 

BeaverIII,

WB is not about the beads, the beads are the award and recognition of ticket completion. Go to a gathering, look at the necks and appreciate the bond with fellow WB'ers (and look for the Eagle Scout knot too) and you probably will notice a different level of committment of the scouter and expectations of him (her). I generally see a person with WB beads as someone who gives selflessly to scouting. It's not about the beads. Others also give selflessly, maybe that person can't afford the cost of the course, or the timing doesn't work out, etc. So, no offense to not WB scouters.

 

[BrentAllen]

Gee, I've read through the Third Edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters, the one Kudu considers to be the bible for real Scouting, and I can't find the first mention of patrols needing to camp at least 300' apart. In fact, it states in the section on Short-Term Camping, page 683 "As far as the Troop Leaders are concerned, they should camp with the Patrols, but should have their own tents. Likewise they will eat with the Patrols, rotating and sharing in the cost." How could the Scouts ever experience any leadership development through the Patrol Method with the adults so close by? The 300' rule is so important - the most important rule in Scouting, according to Kudu - how could they leave it out of the book? The leaders were instructed to camp right there with the boys! Hey Kudu, is this still considered the best version of the SM Handbook ever written?

[Kudu]

BrentAllen writes:

 

In fact, it states in the section on Short-Term Camping, page 683 "As far as the Troop Leaders are concerned, they should camp with the Patrols, but should have their own tents. Likewise they will eat with the Patrols, rotating and sharing in the cost."

 

Short-Term Camp is a whole-Troop campout. This is where Patrol Leaders learn how to conduct their own campouts, and where the Scoutmaster can closely observe a trained Patrol Leader to determine when he is actually capable of leading Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights without adult supervision.

 

How could the Scouts ever experience any leadership development through the Patrol Method with the adults so close by?

 

Most men worked on Saturday mornings. On the preceding page it says "if the Scouts have had sufficient camp training they may be permitted to start out Friday after school under the leadership of a capable junior leader, to be joined by Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters the following day. It must be understood that the Scoutmaster (whether present or absent) is responsible" (Handbook for Scoutmasters, third edition, page 682, emphasis in the original).

 

So if the Troop had "capable junior leaders," the first 24 hours of every such Short-Term Camp were adult-free.

 

BrentAllen writes:

 

The 300' rule is so important - the most important rule in Scouting, according to Kudu - how could they leave it out of the book?

 

You won't find it in this book because it is Baden-Powell's standard.

 

The goal of BSA Patrol Leader Training was to get the Patrols out hiking and camping without adult supervision:

 

"While Patrols are encouraged to go hiking and camping on their own, obviously no group of raw recruits should be permitted to wander off into the woods without adult guidance...It is always desirable for an adult to be with such Scouts.

 

"However, after the Patrol Leaders have been properly trained for hike and camp leadership and the Scouts have learned to take care of themselves on several Troop hikes and camps....opportunities for them to go on their own outings under the leadership of a responsible Patrol Leader should be very definitely provided (HBSM, pages 212-213).

 

Baden-Powell's 300 foot standard is a practical compromise for 21st century BSA Troops that want to incorporate BSA "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" into their Troop Leadership Training (TLT) course or monthly PLC meetings. It provides a more controlled-risk environment for Patrol Overnights under qualified Patrol Leaders on Troop monthly campouts (with adults 300 feet away).

 

BrentAllen writes:

 

Hey Kudu, is this still considered the best version of the SM Handbook ever written?

 

Yes.

 

Of course I do like some aspects of Baden-Powell's Patrol System better than the BSA Patrol Method, and the BSA's concise "Six Methods of Scouting" were not introduced until the fourth edition, but at 1,165 pages the BSA's third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters is the most comprehensive Scoutmaster Handbook ever written.

 

This is still the book to buy if you want to understand how the BSA expected Scoutmasters to train Patrol Leaders how to run what the BSA defined as a "Real Patrol" without adult supervision.

 

You can find used copies for less than $10 per volume at AddAll.

 

See:

 

http://tinyurl.com/5sjvz3

 

IMPORTANT: To find the correct edition, look for "Volume 1" or "Volume 2" in the description, starting on "page 2" of the above URL!

 

The later 1940s printings of the 3rd edition include the Patrol Leader Training course, "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol":

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

Kudu(This message has been edited by kudu)

[btphelps]

NYLT does not refer to Situational Leadership. The revised NYLT syllabus originally included Situational Leadership, but the national council found that the Center for Leadership Studies wanted a royalty fee for every Scouter who attended. The BSA opted to use more generic language to describe the stages of group development based on the principles described by Bruce Tuckman in 1965 as "forming-storming-norming-performing." (Situational Leadership is based in part on this same research.) For details, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_Badge_(Boy_Scouts_of_America).

 

Thus, "Wood Badge for the Twenty-first Century," at one time based on leadership competencies defined by Bela Banathy and adapted from White Stag Leadership Development during the 1960s and 1970s, is now based in part on leadership theories from the 1960s.

 

Brian Phelps

Assistant Director

White Stag Leadership Development

www.whitestag.org

[Vicki]

First off, I'm not in it for the beads. That said, I agree with foto - I've staffed NYLT (camp-based and Pack and Paddle), and I'm half-way through staffing WB (second weekend coming up). The level of commitment is in no way the same for adults. But I now have a much greater appreciation for what the youth staff do! If National were to come up with a recognition system for the youth I'd be all for it. All this stuff about adult recognition is something that should be cleaned off our shoes. BP established the bead system for adult leader training - I'm with other posters who think National has overstepped on this one and I'm not quite sure why they are messing with it in the first place? Our council runs four NYLT courses a year and two WB courses. There hasn't been a problem to date finding WB trained adults to staff NYLT (OK, maybe Pack and Paddle, but those of us who staff that are definitely not in it for the recognition).

 

Vicki

TG, C-04-08

 

[FScouter]

Of course "Pack & Paddle" means nothing in these parts. Sounds like some kind of 50 miler thing. Isn't there another topic about customized names for national training courses?

[Vicki]

Hmmm, OK. In our council, NYLT Pack and Paddle is an opportunity for 14 yr olds and up to take the NYLT course in a somewhat more challenging setting. We backpack for three days, eat Philmont food, teach bear bag techniques, purify water chemically, orienteer, and do all of the NYLT presentations and games. Then we canoe for three days, orienteer, purify water using clay filters, etc., and do the rest of the NYLT presentations and games. The NYLT shield awarded has a yellow border to it that says Pack and Paddle and we cover exactly the same syllabus as the camp-based program.

 

I knew not everybody did this version, but are you telling me nobody else does this?

 

Vicki

[kb6jra]

Up until a few years ago, councils were given a green light to "modify" the JLT locally as long as it covered the core trainings. Now National would like to control the quality of the programs and trainings issued nationwide and requires that the course be called, at least for now, NYLT.

 

Personally I think the Pack and Paddle version your council puts on would be a fantastic adventure, and probably more effectively teaches the skills in the syllabus than the suggested classroom setting, but that's just my opinion. I've got a friend that puts on a Kodiak training for Venturers while doing rafting down a river for a week. It's an awesome experience the youth never forget and by proxy remember the training materials better and longer. I think your council calling it NYLT Pack n Paddle skirts the rule of calling it NYLT, but my council has always called our Buckskin Confrence and now NYLT Buckskin Confrence, and to me that is just fine. There is nothing wrong with upholding traditions within council borders.

[Vicki]

Interesting. The beauty of it is that we still use the classroom setting - the TGs haul around the laptops to facilitate their presentations and the participants gather 'round just like they do in camp.

 

Vicki

[emb021]

"In our council, NYLT Pack and Paddle is an opportunity for 14 yr olds and up to take the NYLT course in a somewhat more challenging setting.

 

I knew not everybody did this version, but are you telling me nobody else does this?"

 

Never heard of anyone doing it, but think it a great idea. Similiar to the 'Walking Wood Badge' course that is occasionally done at Philmont.

 

My only concern is you might be 'competing' in a way with NAYLE and its delivery method, such that your graduates wouldn't want to go to NAYLE or think it a 'let down' to your course.

 

 

Personally, I think the idea of allowing local councils to add some local 'flavor' to their NYLT courses, including name, is a good thing. Mandating that they include "NYLT" in the name is the right idea. I'm not in total agreement with everyone having to use ONLY the name NYLT. I do get a little tired of people refering to their JLTC/NYLT course ONLY by the local name (ie 'Silver Acorn' instead of 'NYLT-Silver Acorn' or the like) and being totally ignorant of the 'real' name of the program (NYLT). I wonder if that is part of the reason for the new mandate. I find it sad when BS leaders who should have learned the youth leadership track (TLT, NYLT, NAYLE) in their training (or heck read about it in Scouting) are totally ignorant of it.

 

 

[Vicki]

"My only concern is you might be 'competing' in a way with NAYLE and its delivery method, such that your graduates wouldn't want to go to NAYLE or think it a 'let down' to your course. "

 

emb, if anything, scouts are less intimidated at the prospect of NAYLE and more likely to do it. Outdoor, high country, high adventure youth leadership training at Philmont! Great Scott, man, how could we possibly compete with that?

 

Vicki

 

 

[ideadoc]

Interesting. We are no longer supposed to have unique names for NYLT, yet page 56 of the 2009-2010 insignia guide shows a NYLT flag that says "National Youth Leader Training" followed by "Golden Acorn."