Just a thought on the whole wfa thing...

[Gold Winger]

"Also understand WFA is directed more to Scouts and Scouters attending our High Adventure programs (Philmont, for example). What % of Scouts attend Philmont or Northern Tier? I don't have that answer, though I'd be very interested in hearing it. "

 

I wouldn't say that it is directed at folks going to Philmont since it isn't a BSA program.

 

I figured out one day that about 1% of all Scouts/Scouters get to go to Philmont or another High Adventure facility. As I told the guys on my crew, "if you get to go to Philmont, consider yourself very lucky."

[BrentAllen]

American Red Cross CPR/AED/First Aid isn't a BSA program either, but we offer it through the council and teach it with council volunteers, just like we do WFA. Philmont now requires each crew to have at least one member trained in WFA, so while it may not be an official BSA program, it is being required by the BSA.

 

http://old.scouting.org/philmont/2008firstaidrequirements.pdf

 

Philmont requires that a least one person, preferably two, (either an advisor or a youth participant) in each crew

be currently certified in American Red Cross Wilderness First Aid or the equivalent* and CPR from the

American Heart Association, the American Red Cross or the equivalent."

[AK-Eagle]

I first took CPR in 1977 after convincing the instructor a 13 year old could absorb the information since then I have used that training twice one time it made the difference. N

 

On the first aid side as camp staff I made more than a couple of trips to the hospital with scouts with ailments ranging from severe dehydration, anaphylaxis from a bee sting, to lacerations needing stitching.

 

In the last ten years as scoutmaster I've only made three trips to the emergency room from a camp out once for a scout and twice for me.

 

Getting the training enabled me to train the scouts, who happened to impress the ER doctor with the splinting they did on my really broken leg the splint stayed on through the x-ray process and was only removed for the actual casting.

 

As for the queasiness don't sweat it in advance, there is plenty of time to pump bilges after everything is done.

 

AK-Eagle

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Yes Brent, I know all of that but that still doesn't mean " WFA is directed more to Scouts and Scouters attending our High Adventure programs" any more than saying "CPR is aimed at Scouters . . ." since the council offers/requires it.

 

The course is directed towards ANYONE who expects to be off in the woods and more than a quick shout away from help.

[BrentAllen]

Hey GW, I know you want to get the last word in, and you can have it. We can argue the definition of "directed" and debate whether I meant the curriculum was "directed" or the marketing was "directed", but the bottom line is most of the participants we are seeing in the classes we are offering (3 to 4 per year) are there because of the Philmont requirement. In the question & answer parts of the course, Philmont and other HA treks usually dominate the discussions. Plus, most monthly campouts are not that far from professional emergency response, whereas the High Adventure treks are. As Bill O'Reilly says, the final word is yours.

[dScouter15]

Actually, I'd kind of like to have the last word - watching my position on BW's scoreboard...

[Gold Winger]

" We can argue the definition of "directed" and debate whether I meant the curriculum was "directed" or the marketing was "directed", but the bottom line is most of the participants we are seeing in the classes we are offering (3 to 4 per year) are there because of the Philmont requirement."

 

As those the council classes that you speak of? What about all of classes offered outside of the BSA arena. Look at WFA's or WMI's websites. Didn's see anything about BSA there.

 

There is a world outside of your council. People who hike and camp aren't all BSA members.

 

Back to you.

[EagleBeaver]

If you have cell phone coverage and call 911, how long will it take for advanced medical help to reach the victim? If it's more than 30-45 minutes, then Wilderness First Aid Basics procedures are more appropriate than urban First Aid. I expect that covers a very high percentage of the normal weekend campouts scouts go on. The skills covered are valuable to a lot more people than just Philmonteers.

 

This WFAB training has been recommended for the BSA high adventure bases for quite awhile, but the recent BSA volunteer interest comes from the 'recommendation' changing to a 'requirement' for Philmont. I'm having a fun time presenting the training to lots of BSA folks this spring. It's a fun session to present and at least a few of the participants have enjoyed it.

 

For WildernesStudent, a large chunk of situations that can go wrong in the wild start small and grow into problems. Dehydration, hypothermia, heatstroke, all develop. With the safety emphasis in BSA, I believe lots of the potential problems never develop due to proactive prevention. Pushing limits of personal abilities, equipment, time, and weather are other ways to ask for trouble. BSA volunteers are (should be) trained to resist those temptations and keep outings safe. Those are reasons why there may be fewer horror stories to share than you would think.

 

While backpacking and camping, I've had to care for hypothermia, dehydration, altitude sickness, sliced finger, sliced leg, hand burns, sprained ankle. No compound fractures, sucking chest wounds, or guts hanging out, but those major traumas are less common as you've figured out.

[WildernesStudent]

"For WildernesStudent, a large chunk of situations that can go wrong in the wild start small and grow into problems. Dehydration, hypothermia, heatstroke, all develop. With the safety emphasis in BSA, I believe lots of the potential problems never develop due to proactive prevention."

 

You're very right...safety emphasis isn't something that has been part of my life until recently...I simply didn't think about it. I'm sure it is something that I will be learning in some of my classes though because I would think that the hole idea of giving someone training like WFA isn't so they can go out and do whatever they heck they want to do because they can use their training...that training is extra (like seatbelts Gold Winger!) and would be pretty pointless unless they taught some sort of accident prevention. I notice a lot of people around my age tend to think they are invincible and behave like it (I admit I've done some pretty stupid things as well...hence my back injury) one of the things I was interested in when I joined this forum was actually learning some types of prevention I've seen enough of what happens without it (hypothermia, dehydration, heat exhaustion low blood sugar, twisted ankles, broken ankles, getting lost etc..)

 

"No compound fractures, sucking chest wounds, or guts hanging out, but those major traumas are less common as you've figured out"

 

Which makes me very happy...you have no idea how happy!! However, I do think I could handle a compound fracture (no blood!!) the other things...it really wouldn't matter if I had the training or not because I would have fainted dead away.

 

[Gold Winger]

" I notice a lot of people around my age tend to think they are invincible and behave like it "

 

That's part of life and as it should be.

[WildernesStudent]

" I notice a lot of people around my age tend to think they are invincible and behave like it "

 

"That's part of life and as it should be."

 

Well, I was refering to more of the hopelessly reckless things such as crossing something 10 or more feet above the ground, rock climbing without ropes, climbing over gardrails (then again everyone knows that those are just suggestions;) There are many others: http://youtube.com/watch?v=K8vhNFzgshk,

for instance. There's nothing wrong with doing spontanious things (I for one am a champion in the extreme sport of Hill Rolling...oh yes it is a sport!) but sometimes people need to think about things that could happen...then again winning a Darwin award may not be so bad .

 

[Gold Winger]

As I said, that's as it should be.

 

When I was in college, we'd borrow cafeteria trays and use them as sleds which were completely uncontrollable. A couple of my friends wound up in the hospital with concussions.

 

In high school we visited the Grand Canyon. I wanted to stand on the railing and have my picture. My father said, "get down from there."

 

One of my high school hobbies was making explosives.

 

Car surfing was popular when I was in college.

 

Would I now recommend doing such things? No but I understand it.

 

Life would be incredibly boring if young people didn't do stupid things. :-)

[WildernesStudent]

When I was in college, we'd borrow cafeteria trays and use them as sleds which were completely uncontrollable. A couple of my friends wound up in the hospital with concussions.

 

"In high school we visited the Grand Canyon. I wanted to stand on the railing and have my picture. My father said, "get down from there."

 

One of my high school hobbies was making explosives.

 

Car surfing was popular when I was in college.

 

Would I now recommend doing such things? No but I understand it.

 

Life would be incredibly boring if young people didn't do stupid things. :-)"

 

 

 

True, life would be very dull...and yet less painful I am sure.

Cafiteria trays...that's old school you haven't tried anything until you've used garbage bags! Seriously, the big black ones, cut them open lay it on the top of the hill run and land on it...(As my one friend commented "there's nothing wrong with a good concussion...they build character!") But I strongly encourage making sure there is nothing at the bottom of the hill....like a creek or rusty metal...one friend had 12 stitches (it's interesting how long it takes someone to realize they are bleeding when they are wearing three layers and are numb from the cold)

 

Making explosives huh? Wanna share some tips my guy friends would love you forever! Actually, I know quite a few people who stayed in scouts only long enough to steal all the fire tips they could get and they can catch anything on fire!(I am not kidding anything!)

 

Haven't tried the car surfing yet lol but now that you suggest it maybe I will!

Oh...and as for our logic...it's like I tell my parents we always think safety first (in other words, it's not like we're just going to jump off a roof...that would be incredibly stupid! We'd put some mattreses down first!

[WildernesStudent]

So, as if it were actually a sign that I should be taking this class I got to see two people who knew WFA put their skills to the test yesterday. It was incredible! Given, it wasn't a life or death situation but they actually knew what they were doing (which I might add makes everyone around them feel better as well) So, I am looking forward to this class now...I am not to excited about the big things that could (but most likely won't happen) but the small things I can handle...I like the idea of being able to help people and make them feel better.

[Karen_216]

Consider this. You may need to use in everyday life, not just the wilderness. Be prepared as you can.

My husband went to deli a few years ago to get a sandwhich. A kid behind the counter started screaming that his arm was stuck in the meat grinder. As everyone sort of gave blank looks my husband rushed behind the counter and helped this 15 year old boy who's arm had been traumatically amputated. No saving the rest of the arm but my husband applied a tourniquet and got the kid to lie down and just generally talked to him so he didn't go into shock. The resuce workers were near by and got there very quickly. they said my husbands actions kept blood loss to a minumum and prevetned the boy from going into shock.

 

Will you be ready and be able to act calmly and make quick decisions when it counts?? Why do we have fire detectors or airbags? Even in everyday life you can never be too quick to act and make a rational decision but if I'm out on ahike or campout I espcially want someone nearby that knows what to do. What if I'm the only one and everyone else panics? What would you do if you fell in hole and no one was near? I've heard of many situations where someone had to save their own life- to make a decision between a limb or their whole life.

Kudos to everyone and anyone who goes the extra mile to take any emergency courses.

Someday you may walk into a deli and need the knowledge. What about your buddy on ahike- you look over and he's gone or gets stung by a bee and has a reaction?