Heated Discussions?

[Eamonn]

I know I have way too much time on my hands when I find myself thinking about things that really don't matter.

Sad thing is that me being me? I tend to do it a lot.

The other day I was silly enough to spend some time thinking about the best way to get dressed in the morning.

I as a rule put my underwear on first.

I was OK with that.

Next comes my T-shirt. - That seemed like a good idea. I did wonder if maybe my socks should come next but decided against it.

Next for work we have to wear an armored vest, so that came on next. I'm still not sure when the socks should come? But opt for the shirt, which needs to have a name plate put on.

I rethink when the name plate should be put on.

As the shirts and the T-shirts are hung in the same place it makes more sense to take them both out at the same time, place the name plate on then put the T-shirt on then the vest and then the shirt (With name plate fixed firmly in place.) This makes me think about the socks and underwear. The sock drawer is the drawer below the underwear drawer, I tend to grab the socks and the underwear at the same time. Maybe the socks should come next? I decide against it.

Next comes the pants. Then the belt, the belt has to have pouch and a key carrier added, the pouch which contains two pair of latex gloves and a plastic thingy for mouth to mouth goes on first and the key carrier goes on just before the belt goes through the last belt loop, next comes at long last the socks, I'm not sure why but normally the right sock first -I don't think it matters which sock goes on first.

Next comes the shoes, again the right shoe first.

The big question then is when to tie the shoes? Is it better to wait until both shoes are on or put one shoe on, tie it and then work on the other shoe? I have opted for putting both shoes on and then tyeing them -Right shoe first this tends to take less toil on my back.

 

I'm sure that there are other ways of getting dressed and I'm sure that some people will think that the socks should come after the underwear.

But for now this is what works for me.

I'm almost sure that no matter how we go about it? Chances are that when we are done we will all leave our homes dressed.

Now and then something will go wrong and we might end up with odd socks or maybe a T-shirt on back to front.

I'm also fairly sure that no one is going to try and put the shoes on before the pants, as this would make putting the pants on really difficult.

 

I think this forum provides us a great opportunity to look at different ways of doing things.

Some things are right just because that's the way things are (Not putting the shoes on before the pants?)

Some things might not apply to you (Wearing a armored vest.)

Some things are of little or no consequence. (Which shoe or which sock comes first?).

We are of course all able and welcome to air our views.

I for one am open to look at different ways of doing things.

I'm not willing to be put down because I might do things in a slightly different way than maybe you do them.

Most times I'm happy that we all in our own way do get done what needs to get done.

But then again maybe I just have too much time on my hands.

Eamonn

[Gunny2862]

You know Eamonn, I agree.

 

However some decisions are circumstancial - i.e. when dressing for a military uniform inspection that didn't involve the utility uniform we were taught to put the shoes on before the trousers so we could have our: socks, shirt-garters, t-shirt and uniform shirt properly placed. If you bent over to put on the shoes and tie them you could very easily knock everything else out of alignment.

 

But not utilizing shirt-garters anymore and not being inspected by Marines I don't usually do everything their way anymore. And in the Scout world as in the Marines no one I know of would put on their boots before their trousers unless they had those zip open cuffs on the trousers. But, there may be an exception out there.

 

For some reason I'm a left sock first guy - I think it may be possible that Senior Drill Instructor Staff Sergeant Ryan my have done his job a little too well on that one, I'm not sure....

[CA_Scouter]

Eamonn, what a great analogy. So elegantly stated and so well presented.

 

I am still trying to overcome my upbringing though, as my parents always use to tell me to put on my shoes and socks but they never told me in which order to do so. :-(

 

 

[John-in-KC]

E,

 

I can take you to two or three non-Scouting groups, where the first sentence is usually an ad hominem attack against the original poster and perhaps several of the folks who followed.

 

We play lots nicer than 99% of the online community.

 

The biggest thing we regulars can do is look at the original posters info in the upper left corner and try to really answer their question the first time. I'm still ashamed about what the board did to Margaret in Colorado. I have to wonder if her son is even still in BSA after that ...

[SSScout]

I remember an article about the USCGC Eagle, the 'Tall Ship' that the Coast Guard trains it's officers on. The Officer of the Deck (a Cadet)was drilling his crew (other Cadets) and got to a series of commands to arrange the sails and rigging for getting under way. The article quoted him exactly, and then noted that the crew "held fast" because the O/D had said the orders in the wrong sequence. All the commands needed to take place, but the Cadets were taught to ALWAYS do them in the sequence given. The article noted that this was the equivalent of being told to put your shoes on and then your socks.

 

Mayo on the RIGHT slice of bread, mustard on the LEFT slice, lettuce on the mayo, ham slice on the mustard, flip ham side over on the lettuce.

 

TP roll end NEXT to wall or AWAY?

 

Roll up Tshirts or fold them.

 

Necessity or philosophy or opinion or tradition?

[Bob White]

An interesting post Eamonn. Since the order in which we dress has never been an issue on this forum let's look at the parts of your post that do relate to recent discussions.

 

You wrote that you you are "required" to wear specific pieces of clothing and equipment. Who requires that of you? Is this how you dress all the time, or is this the way you dress only when representing your employer and in the course of your responsibilities represented by that uniform?

 

Would it be true that there are things you do in your life when that uniform would not be appropriate to wear?

 

Deos the sequence in which you dress really matter? Ask a firefighter, they might have a different answer than you or I.

 

Is there a right way to dress? absolutely. Is there an appropriate time to wear certain clothing and an inappropriate time to wear certain clothing? Absolutely. Depending on the "uniform, there could even be a way of dressing in the right or wrong sequence.

 

So I guess it comes done to knowing what is right or wrong for the uniform you agreed to wear, and then being true to that committment.

 

John

I read the thread that Margaret began, and for as badly as many posters treated her those same posters treat guys like fscouter and me just as badly if not worse much of the time. Margaret left and some people feel badly about their behavior. I would be curious if they would feel as bad about their behavior if she had stayed? Is it their behavior they regret or Margaret's reaction that bothers them?

 

[acco40]

Eamonn, your post reminds me an All in the Family episode. Carroll O'Connor (Archie) happens to see Rob Reiner (Meathead - his son-in-law) getting dressed. He first puts on one sock, one shoe and then another sock, another shoe. That drives Archie nuts. Then they start to argue about the merits what is best when putting on one's socks and shoes. It was hilarious!

 

The key to your analogy is in determining when things "matter" and when they do not. Some may see the difference in holding quarterly Courts of Honor vs. one big grand annual Court of Honor as just a style difference and others as a major breech of what the BSA is "supposed" to do. Yes, we all need to have an open mind, but The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." ~Terry Pratchett, The Bromeliad

[Eamonn]

I'm not happy that Margaret got upset.

But as we see in this thread.

I never in a million years would have thought about anyone putting their trousers on after their shoes or boots. Gunny2862 (In the nicest way!!) has shown me that I was not right.

 

Maybe the answer to prevent things like what happened to Margaret might be an area where questions can be asked but only answered with a link to the "Official" ?? answer.

When I read "This is a private community provided by SCOUTER Network and reserved

for Scouting related discussions."

I don't really think of "Us" being a board for Q & A. It is a forum and as we have seen many times Threads do at times take on a life of their own.

I'm not sure if we (ME?) do have a responsibility to check the members profile? Maybe it's the responsibility of the person posting to read that this is "a private community provided by SCOUTER Network

and reserved for Scouting related discussions.

Could it be that Margaret didn't ask the question in the right place?

 

I kinda think many of us can guess what sort of response we are lightly to get from different Forum Members when we post something?

(I not brave enough to say what from who!! -That would be really sticking my neck out.)

While most of us, most of the time are willing to take plenty of no notice! Every now and then we do rise to the bait and what follows isn't a discussion. Maybe more along the lines of an argument?

In the years that I have been a forum member I have only met a couple of other forum members.

I like to think that given the right time and place I'd be happy to allow just about any of them buy me an adult beverage!

I really don't have an axe to grind with anyone.

OK, so maybe over the years there have been people that I have allowed to get up my nose! But I see the fault there as being mine.

Back home in the Dark Ages when I was a Scout Leader (SM). The fifth point of the Scout Law was: A Scout is a brother to all Scouts. (It was of course changed when Scouting in the UK went co-ed.) I do have a real home-grown brother, who is four years older than little old me. As kids we used to fight like cats and dogs. When I first seen this fifth point I remember thinking how stupid it was!

Today we are as different as can be. -He is very right wing nd I'm not! But there isn't anything in the world that I wouldn't do for him or he for me. We know that when it comes to politics, we are never going to agree. I know that he just can't help being wrong!! So most of the time we just don't go there.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FScouter]

At the risk of starting another heated discussion, the Margaret affair has been overblown. If we were merely a Q&A forum, she'd have gotten a simple answer to her query about how to wear two badges. The answer is "NO, thank you for asking, next question please. But we're a discussion forum, and the resulting plethora of comments led to spun topics of den chief uniform accoutrements and multiple positions of responsibility. Comments are good. Any hurt feelings I think came from not understanding the discussion nature of these forums.

 

Discussions cant get heated until each of the participating parties is hot. If ones manner of dressing doesnt rate high on ones list of important items, theres nothing to get hot about.

[Trevorum]

I guessed I missed the "Margaret Affair". After review (plus the several spun threads), I think I agree with FScouter: no one was discourteous or unScoutlike.

 

Carry on.

[fgoodwin]

Nick: I'm just speculating, but I wonder if Margaret took offense at the suggestion that her son s/b doing the asking, rather than mom?

 

I know that sometimes it takes a while for parents of newly crossed-over Scouts to understand that Boy Scouts isn't Cub Scouts, and well-intentioned parents shouldn't always be doing things for their sons. Boy Scouts is about the young man learning to stand on his own two feet. I'm not saying Margaret is a "helicopter" parent, just that it sometimes takes a while to understand the differences in the programs, and the expectations on the boys.

 

And I certainly don't mean to suggest that dads are any better than moms at letting go -- some of the most outrageous cases of "hovering" over new Scouts is by dads. But the responses to Margaret didn't make that point, either.

 

Just my 2

[evmori]

Good points FScouter.

 

I took particular note to the way I dressed for work this morning.

 

Underwear

Shirt

Pants

Belt

Left Sock

Left Shoe

Right Sock

Right Shoe

iPod on belt

Junk in pockets

 

The sock shoe method I attribute to the same All in the Family episode acco referenced.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

http://mortystv.com/media/a_sock_and_a_shoe_norman_rob.wma

[BMaxwell]

Just a thought from a new member, mom, maybe helecopter but trying not to. After being both my sons leader in Cub Scouts they are now both in Boy Scouts and off on a campout with out me. That was painful for me. I am anxious to hear their stories when they get back.

We have been at two troops. The first, in a year my son never earned rank, not even Scout. After attending summer camp. Nothing. I was told to back off and let my son figure it out. My son cried and wanted to quit scouts as the boys picked on him. My son has a disability, think of the show Munk. He is afraid of germs and boys rubbed dirty rags in his face. SM did nothing.

New unit, new experience. Yes the SM told me to make my son ask the questions. I learned. Maybe prodded the boy but pleased to see rank, MB and a happy boy volunteering for Assistant Patrol leader.

Guess I am saying please be patient. It is hard for mom's to let go. We appreciate all you guys are doing to help us build our boys in to men.

[scoutldr]

Welcome to the forums, BMaxwell. And congratulations on becoming a "recovering" helicopter Mom! Trust me, your son will be better off for it. Sounds like your new SM is on track and your son is on his way. One of Baden-Powell's often repeated quotes is "Never do anything for a boy that he can do for himself", (or words to that effect). My own sons will be 30 and 26 this year, and that's how I tried to raise them. Neither one made Eagle (it was their decision, not mine to make), but they are both very successful adults. That's all one can hope for. An essential part of growing up is to learn to make decisions for one's self and to be accountable for the results. Good luck, and I hope to see you here often!