Webelos & Bears Camping @ Camporee

[Eagle Foot]

OK I'm gona go through this one more time. Webelos & Bears at camporees is against policy???..."Guide to Safe Scouting" This is what my take is on the subject.

 

Our council seems to have given special permission to allow this, in addition they have waived to one on one rule...instead it's one to every four (1 adult to every four Webelos or Bears) Am I wrong??...I stand to be corrected!

 

I also thought they coulden't camp more than one night...where have I been!!! I'm camping chairman...been doing it for more than 5 years...have I been asleep? Has our council steped out of bounds? Have the rules been changed???

 

Edited by Eagle Foot

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

I cannot speak to what policy your Council waives. I'm probably not in your Council .

 

I can say that Bears are, by G2SS, not permitted to camp as Dens during the program year. They're permitted to attend a Council operated and staffed camp, and they're permitted to be part of Pack Family Camping, but not (even 1:1) as Dens.

 

Webelos are, given the circumstances defined in G2SS, permitted to overnight as Dens.

 

As Beavah is fond of pointing out, G2SS is a compendium of liability "gotchas." If you follow the tour planning and outdoor activity training procedures (BALOO, WOL (or its name THIS week)), you'll do ok.

 

If you are genuinely concerned that your Council's policies on camping are not supporting G2SS, it might be worth a phone call from your COR to your DE to ask "please explain the rules and the 'why they exist' on Cub Camping to my IH and I."

[FScouter]

A camporee is a Boy Scout competitive skills event. Patrols from all over the district come and show off their skills and compete. Webelos dens may be invited to come for the day only to observe what the bigger Boy Scouts are up to. They may even be invited to participate in a few events that are more or less age-appropriate for Webelos. The purpose is the whet their appetite for Boy Scouting. At the end of the day they go home.

 

The district should be planning a separate Webelos event like a Weboree or Webelos Woods weekend, a similar kind of event geared strictly for Webelos. Usually what happens is some district committee person gets the bright idea that they can blow off the Webelos event and just tell em they can go to the Boy Scout Camporee instead. Much easier to put on one event than two, right? No mention of course that they are separate events for very good reasons. After a few years this gets to be a bad habit and everyone comes to believe that's the way it is supposed to be.

 

Some of us in our district got tired of this and started doing an annual Klondike Derby. (No Cub Scouts allowed)

 

By the way, a camporee is not a camping event, but rather a competitive skills event. It is planned and executed by the district Activities & Civic Service committee, not the Camping committee.

[MarkS]

I guess I'll be the first to quote the G2SS regarding Webelos camping, "A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips."

 

Talk about a bunch of poorly worded gobbligoop. You just can't tell if they really mean that there must be one adult per boy. I guess I've been writing too many engineering specs but "in most cases" implies exceptions and expected doesn't mean required. I just don't see a 1:1 ratio requirement in any of that. It even seems to open the door for camping staff to set some guidelines for their event. They might even set these guidelines based on the location of the event and the activities planned.

 

Our district camporees that are planned and executed by boys in our O/A chapter with the help and supervision of their advisors, include overnight camping, an opportunity to conduct joint Webelos den-troop campouts, and provide separate (age appropriate) activites for Boy Scouts and Webelos. My unit recommends that the Webelos dens from our feeder pack provide an adult for each boy when they camp with us. However, if they have three adults and six boys, two and eight, or three and four, it's okay. Heck, it's even okay if only the den leader can come, we'll help provide two-deep leadership when they need it. Our goal is for the boys to have fun and stay in the program and to get an early start on recruiting their parents as adult leaders.

 

If they want to, they can camp with us both Friday and Saturday nights but we recommend they come Saturday morning. The Webelos don't really know how to set up camp and that way they don't have to stand around observing us and getting bored. We set up their tents for them the night before they arrive. Nothing but first class service when they camp with us.

 

Our district provides spring and fall camporees with opportunities for joint Webelos den-troop campouts, a Klondike for the Boy Scouts, and a Webelos Winter Woundup. Not to mention 3- and 5-day Webelos summer camps run by our council. So you can't say they're taking the easy path.

 

BTW... they must be Webelos to participate in these activites. There are other opportunities provided for Cub Scouts (including Bears).(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[Lisabob]

Our council does not allow webelos and cubs to attend the spring camporee. They have sometimes allowed webelos to attend the fall camporee as guests of troops, and they have also hosted a cub program to coincide with the fall boy scout camporee - particularly every 3-4 years when they do a very big fall camporee. This fall our council did that and encouraged Cub Packs to camp, but they had a separate camping area and separate activities set up for them on the opposite end of the earth from boy scout camping.

 

I have never been able to find the "one night" rule for cub camping and have come to the conclusion it does not exist except as a myth. (but if others are keener eyed than I, by all means point it out) I know that I was taught this "rule" myself back when I was a cub leader and went to training, along with what turned out to be a bunch of other mis-statements. Eagle Foot, I commend you for being open to changing your understanding of "the rules" because in my experience, that doesn't happen too often, especially with people who are no longer actually involved in the cub program.

 

One more thing I remember from my Webelos leader days: Most cub events were pitched a little too low for our Webelos guys (esp. by the second year), so as to be accessible to younger cubs. At the same time, some boy scout events were too hard or required skills our webelos guys didn't have yet. Consequently I really wish our council had a "webelos woods" type of program in place and would encourage others to take a closer look at doing the same. You could even run it parallel to your camporee and have troops invite webelos to camp with them, just run separate day activities.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, EagleFoot. Confusin', ain't it.

 

First thing to remember is that da full title of G2SS is "Guide to Safe Scouting for Unit Activities". Rules for council and district-sponsored events are different, and are either covered by the National Camping School standards or just by the council's own risk management and discretion. As it should be.

 

As Lisa'bob says, there's no "one night" rule, even for units. That one is a myth.

 

Now, the question is whether a council should be doin' what you suggest, eh? National guidance is "not really". And I have to agree. Boy Scout camporees should be age-appropriate for Boy Scouts, eh? Which means they are not age-appropriate for webelos or bears. I dislike the pressure/trend to dumb-down Boy Scouting to accommodate the younger guys. They'll get their turn in a few years.

 

That havin' been said, a lot of councils do exactly as FScouter describes, eh? And there's also some merit to their position.

 

As Camping Chairman, I think yeh should be having this discussion with your committee. Not a policy argument, but a discussion among good scouters about whether it's the right thing to do for kids, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[MarkS]

It's been mentioned that camporees are sponsored by the council, by districts, planned and run by an adult council or district committee, run by an O/A chapter. Other threads have mentioned a troop rotation. Some camporees appear to dumb down the boy scout program to include Webelos. Some camporees give Webelos a taste of boy scouting and provide units an opportunity to promote troop/pack relationships withtout dumbing down anything.

 

More than one way to conduct a camporee I suppose. Certainly not a one answer fits all stituation.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[Herms]

Taking 7 Webelos to the District Camporee this weekend. Already have the TP, leadership blah, blah lined up. Our District even has them sign up ahead of time!

[Crossramwedge]

Cub scouts are not allowed to camp out on a camporee with "troops" present. They may visit the camporee during the day and to take part in the events that are age/skill appropiate. They are allowed to camp out with a troop for a regular camping event for one night . The parents/gardians are supposed to be there with them.

[Lisabob]

Crossram, no disrespect intended, can you tell me where you found that one night rule?

[Stosh]

This is an interesting discussion in light of our council's activity schedule which has, in the past, scheduled a Cub Scout 2 day event running parallel with a Boy Scout camporee at the same place at the same time with the emphasis being an opportunity for the Webelos boys to "interact" with the Boy Scouts throughout the weekend. When the Boy Scouts go off for their activity competitions, the Cub Scouts go off and do their activities, but for the most part they camp and eat together with the Boy Scout troops hosting their potential crossover boys from the pack.

 

Stosh

[MarkS]

Maybe crossram is differentiating Cub Scouts from Webelos because National encourages Webelos den-troop campouts.

 

I'm not aware of a one night rule. I'd like to know where that is being cited from as well. I suppose "pack overnighter" can be taken literally as one night.

 

Stosh,... that's how our council does it. Works great, doesn't it?

 

The way our unit handles the Webelos meals is they eat with the adults so the patrols can still do their thing. We usually have something the Webelos can make like foil packs.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[John-in-KC]

Agree with Lisa, crossram, please, please cite your rule. It goes against G2SS camping section at the "meaning of words" level.

[evmori]

Webelos use to be able to camp with Troops at camporees! I always felt this was great for the Troops & good for the Webelos. Never understood why this was changed!

[FScouter]

It never "changed" ed. The character of a matter does not change when one discovers the truth. Rather, one becomes enlighted.