Resource overload….

[WildernesStudent]

 

 

 

Well let me start of by introducing myself. First of all I am not really into scouting though I have known a few scouts. I never was much for outdoor activities until about two years ago and now it takes a great amount of effort for me to keep myself inside and get things done. I guess you could say I joined this forum as a desperate last resort to a big problem Ive discovered and because of my faith in the BSA, which will always have my full support.

 

My problem as I stated in the topic of the forum is resource overload. When my friends and I started going hiking and such we didnt really know about the dos and donts of the backwoodshow could we know? Were average American twenty year olds who have grown up watching movies like Without a Paddle, Wild America and tv shows like Man vs. the wild, Lost and fear factor lol for all we knew the reason people went hiking was because of the riskthe thrill and perhaps the chance to get lost and then (of course...like the movies) get rescued within a couple hours of making a cell phone call and be back in time to finish our homework with an amazing story to tell our envious friends.

 

We have learned a lot through trial and errorit is amazing how often our definition of adventure and the common definition for stupidity often intertwined. The problem we came to was that when we started becoming aware of the fact that there were Dos and Donts to our little excursions we tried finding the right way to do things and found hundreds of self-proclaimed experts and very few who actually agreed with each other. We didnt know what to do, how can we tell who is right and who is wrong? Trial and error? Well thats what we had been doing. Its easy to go into a store and pick up some sort of book on hiking (there sure are many many many) but you dont give someone a copy of Greys Anatomy and expect them to do open heart surgery either. wouldnt it be nice if they had at least some basic knowledge. Well, yesso where do you get it?

 

Our problem hasnt been that there arent resources, are problem is that there are way way to many and most of them assume the person reading has a basic knowledge and so they skip right to the first incision before explaining the surgery prep. Its no wonder why there are so many people who have had bad accidents, many fatal, on what you might call a simple day hike it is a lot easier forgetting all of the sources and all of the experts instead of trying to wade through each one and determine which is right when you have no previous experience to help you.

 

Right now we have gone back to our winging it stagewe have gradually done some improving, but my fear is that we have become so used to doing things our way for so long we will always be falling back into it even if we were do learn the dos and donts.I will be the first to admit how easy it is to forget or ignore something you have not put in practice. So, my opinion is that we need to talk to people who actually have experience, know what theyre talking about and can give us answersnaturally the first group I thought of was the BSA. I have often held the opinion that the BSA holds a wealth of knowledge and could greatly benifit the public by sharing some of it. So here I am askingwould you mind giving me some tips, answering questions and such?

 

Oh...yeah...

I will add that what I am looking for is kind friendly advice not to be hit over the head with a rulebook all at once lol. That has happened to us before with bad results we went into a stage of shock followed by the Oh no! Are we doing it right!! panic stage which quickly led to the apathetic who really cares stage.

 

 

Thanks, sry it got kinda long!

[Gold Winger]

I would guess that the reason that there's so many experts with conflicting advice is that there are so many ways to do things. Look at the threads on wool vs. poly-plasticene clothing.

 

As with many things, we start off copying our mentors and then, over time, we adopt new techniques that others have told us about or that we've developed on our own because "it just made sense."

 

Look for a hiking club in your area. Join the club and go on a few outings. Listen to everyone's advice and put it through your common sense filter. Look for the middle ground between the extremes.

 

In the Scouting world, if you're not yet 21, you could join a Venturing crew that does high adventure activities and learn there. Even if you are 21, you could sign up as an "advisor" and you would still be in a position to learn.

[Lisabob]

Gold Winger's advice about joining a local hiking club or a BSA Venturing Crew is really good. If you are near a university or college, lots of those have outdoor clubs that are open to the local community. Outfitter/outdoor-oriented stores can probably also provide contact info for local groups.

 

Let me add that if you are looking for a fairly simple and straightforward resource, you might check out the BSA merit badge handbooks for hiking and backpacking. They are designed to be accessible to kids ages 11-17 so they're manageable, yet I have found them to be full of good info and well worth the $3.50.

 

Have fun!

[Gold Winger]

Recognizing that you don't know is a big step in learning. I'm a shooting instructor and getting people, especially young men and boys, to admit that they don't know what they are doing is hard.

 

Experience here ranges from "Super Outback Ranger Dude" to "Enthusiastic Novice." I put myself right above the "enthusiastic novice" rating and I'll never reach "super outback ranger dude" status.

 

I made some big mistakes when starting out and I'll be glad to pass along my wisdom and I'm sure the Super Outback Ranger Dudes will be glad to help.

 

So ask your questions. We'll do what we can to help.

 

 

 

[WildernesStudent]

At this point joining an adventure crew is not an option; there isnt one in our immediate area. Also, I usually go hiking with a group of 8-12 people so we could probably start our own crew if we really wanted too.

 

Our school does have an outdoor club but they rarely do anything and when they do it is either expensive (try a $500 skiing trip) or to advanced (nothing like a 20 mile backpacking trip to stretch the muscles) or wellboth (wouldnt you love to spend $500 dollars so that you can kill yourself hiking 20 miles up a mountain!). I suppose what I am aiming at here is that we will find a free couple of hours call each other and go for a hike or like today we will spend four hours just aimlessly wondering around exploring. We like having our flexibility but I think we need to improve our methods I am going to list some things and maybe you could tell me which you wouldnt advice doing, things no one should be doing, and things that are okin other words would you let a group you are leading do them (and remember that the majority of us have no previous experience).

Hiking with no preparation

Night hiking

Hiking alone

Off trailing

Hiking without anything

Hiking with just water

Hiking in flip-flops

Cave searching (the purpose of which is to find one to exploreI also want to add here that we did find a cave and decided that it would be unwise to go into it. instead we went and asked the head of the outdoor club what he thought and his reply when he found out we hadnt gone into it was. Why not?Did we miss something?!)

Hiking in the snow (I did it once and will never do it again without someone who knows what they are doing)

Hiking in the rain/thunderstorms

Wading in creeks

Climbing trees

Crossing logs that have fallen over creeks (some of which are 20 ft. off the ground)

Impromptu rock climbing

Jumping creeks

Large groups splitting up and getting separated

No real designated leader

Andas we have yet to learn anything else no rulebook.

 

Obviously I know some of this is just borderline stupidity, which could lead to the unfortunate event of one of us earning a Darwin award. I suppose what we really need is just to go on a hike with someone who knows what they are doing and follow their examplebut I dont know how that would be possible. anyone want to volunteer? (jk).

 

 

 

 

[FireKat]

"I suppose what we really need is just to go on a hike with someone who knows what they are doing and follow their examplebut I dont know how that would be possible. anyone want to volunteer? (jk)."

Not really a bad idea, why not find a local troop who might take y'all on a hike? Good leadership practice for the troop and a chance to learn while doing for you. 

[WildernesStudent]

same problem as the adventure crew idea...there isn't one close enough to us...and how many troops do you know who want 10 college age students taging a long on a hike lol....on the other hand it might give the scouts a chance to get their first aid badges...

[Ohio_Scouter]

In my opinion, if you can find a troop or crew in your area that is in training for a backpacking trek at Philmont Scout Ranch, that would be ideal. Philmont is a Scout Ranch located in northern New Mexico where scouts from all over the country come to hike and backpack for about 2-weeks at a time. The treks average in length between 50 and 100 miles. Most of the scouts who attend range in age from 14-18 years old. They are also accompanied by adult leaders who train with them. I think a group of 20-year olds would fit right in.

 

Also, as Lisabob said, pick up a copy of the backpacking merit badge pamphlet at the local scout shop and read it. It's chock full of useful hiking and backpacking tips and well worth the $3.00 investment.

[AnneinMpls]

I'll give it go though others may disagree!

Here's your list of stuff - I'll add comments as appropriate.

First off, location is everything. You might find the same exact terrain in a city park or 50 miles from the closest town. The difference is you can make a lot of mistakes in a city park and it just won't matter You can wear the wrong clothes, not remember rain gear, have no first aid kit, break a leg - and you have the resources at hand to get you out of trouble.

So, use the resources close at hand during the learning stages - make your beginner mistakes in town

 

Hiking with no preparation - you can do this in town with no poor outcomes. If you want the group you're leading to be able to do more though, you want to begin laying a groundwork for doing things right, so just write down a quick plan of where and when you'll be, and what your emergency plans are.

 

Night hiking - in town the dangers are different than in the wilderness. Dress to be seen if walking along roadways. Flashlights & extra batteries, but teach everyone not to shine lights in faces! carry the flashlight pointed straight down at your feet - your eyes will adjust better to the low light conditions.

 

Hiking alone - solo hiking is just not a good idea. Teach the buddy system. and pair up buddies with buddies too!

 

Off trailing - consider environmental impacts

 

Hiking without anything - nekked? Not recommended in town

 

Hiking with just water - in town, at least know where your water sources are. you can hike around, stop in at a cafe or park building. Away from town, be extra sure of your water sources and have a way to carry water with you - hands free is better

 

Hiking in flip-flops - if everything is paved, then ok - they're your sore feet. If it's not pavement, you need a closed toe shoe. Sandals catch tree roots, endanger toes, etc.

 

Cave searching (the purpose of which is to find one to exploreI also want to add here that we did find a cave and decided that it would be unwise to go into it. instead we went and asked the head of the outdoor club what he thought and his reply when he found out we hadnt gone into it was. Why not?Did we miss something?!) - caves are for wildlife. do not disturb

 

Hiking in the snow (I did it once and will never do it again without someone who knows what they are doing) - snowshoeing can be good fun

 

Hiking in the rain/thunderstorms - dress for the weather, tops *and* bottoms. A lot of newbies dont realize there are rain pants. I find soggy pants to be much more uncomfortable than soggy shirts. Also, read up on hypothermia - polarfleece is a super good layer to always have on hand even if warm weather is expected. Rain can be cold! (Go to the thrift store - you can but used polarfleece jackets for $5. Buy adult sizes for the kids you work with - they'll fit over everything they're wearing. A polarfleece layer can correct just about any clothing problem with the low-income kids I work with)

 

Wading in creeks - definitely! dont hurt anybody's home. If you lift a rock to see who's at home, put it back exactly like it was.

 

Climbing trees - absolutely! Use spotters, and dont assist anyone to climb higher than they can get under their own power.

 

Crossing logs that have fallen over creeks (some of which are 20 ft. off the ground) If it's greater than waist-high you run the risk of very serious spinal injury.

 

Impromptu rock climbing - no. not impromptu, and not without training. Now, scrambling around on rocky ground is good fun - waist-high boulders, etc.

 

Jumping creeks - ok, just be sensible with it

 

Large groups splitting up and getting separated - accidentally or purposefully? A big thing is how to learn to keep a group together. With kidlets, there's a psychological badness about being "last" and slowest. Whoever is lagging behind, halt the group and send them up in front to set the pace. You might give them with an adult a 5 minute lead time. Buddy system always!

 

No real designated leader - bad idea.

 

Andas we have yet to learn anything else no rulebook. - get the group together to decide on rules after giving them some good guidance on what makes sense for the area you're hiking in. Stay in arms reach of your buddy, stay in sight of the adult at all times, report any injury to the adult, etc.

 

Hope this is sometihng to get you started

Anne in Mpls

 

[Its Me]

 

My advice, buy a trail map, set a date and go do it.

 

National Geographic map store: Pick a State, Pick a forest, buy a map and go.

 

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/jump.jsp?itemType=CATEGORY&itemID=246

 

Have fun.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

"wouldnt you love to spend $500 dollars so that you can kill yourself hiking 20 miles up a mountain!)."

 

LOL! That sounds like Philmont, only it was $1200 and 80 miles. However, I do get your point. Sometimes, the very experienced crowd forgets that they were novices. I've also noticed that groups that don't make an effort to include novices and bring them up to speed often dwindle.

 

Silly question, have to spoken with the "outdoor club" and asked if they plan on running any training sessions for novices. Maybe they don't because no one has asked.

 

I pretty much concur with Annie except that I find town hikes to be boring. If you substitute county park hike for town hike, we're good. You can head off down the three mile loop at a park with nothing more than a bottle of water and a glance at the map.

[WildernesStudent]

Wait. 1200 U.S dollars for an 80 mile hike. people actually pay money to do that!?I mean wait. sounds like fundo it all the time lol what exactly is Philmont?

Hmm well at least its better then paying $ 40,000 to climb (and die) on mount EverestI wish I had been the genius to come up with that ideaI could have my school paid off by now.

 

I actually have talked to some of the members of the outdoor club and they do, on occasion, hike some of the same trails my friends and I go on regularly but again they are experienced and so move at a faster (ok, much faster) pace then we do. I am also sure that they dont incorporate some of our favorite things to do likeexploring.

 

The problem I have with a lot of programs is that hiking seems to be defined as getting from point A, to point B, back to point A as fast as one can (maybe this is to guarantee that everyone gets back in one piece. who knows). I like taking my time, doing some exploring, taking pictures, looking for animal tracks, trying to identify plants and trees (I usually am wrongexcept I DO know what poising ivy looks likepoison oak I am still working on unfortunately) etc. There are several beautiful places we have discovered that no one else notices because they stay on the trail and practically run by them. I like to get off the path and live a little lol. As for the environmentwe are careful not to purposely destroy anything and we never leave anything that wasnt there before, but other then that I believe the environment can take care of itself.

 

I also think one of our biggest problems might be that that we think of these woods as our backyard, playground etc we feel completely and utterly safe in them (which is why you have people who will walk across logs that high or run of the trail at a moments notice) Do you think this is a bad thing? I know the woods cant be as safe as we think and yet at the same time I am utterly convinced nothing will ever happen in our woods (dangerously optimistic I think is a good way to describe it). I think we need to find away to get rid of this viewpoint before something tragic happens but I have no idea how.

 

People hike in snow? I suppose it could be fun but I went on a two-mile hike with about 30 novices, *rolls eyes*. Its like the whole I know how to survive in the wilderness because Ive spent half my life sitting in my room playing Sims Survival on my play station 2! mindsetkinda scary.

 

[Gold Winger]

"Wait. 1200 U.S dollars for an 80 mile hike. people actually pay money to do that!?I mean wait. sounds like fundo it all the time lol what exactly is Philmont?"

 

Philmont Scout Ranch is a large (over 200 sq. miles) Scout facility in the Sangre de Christos mountains in northern New Mexico. Very lucky Scouts and Scouters get to go there for what is one of ultimate Scouting experiences. I say lucky because getting a slot for crew is based on a lottery.

 

I went last summer with a group from son's troop. Base camp is at 6,000 feet, we spent 10 days in the back country, covered 80 miles, most of it over 10,000 feet and made it up to 12,400 feet.

 

For most in Scouting, it is a once in a life time experience.

 

Each of the 12 members of the crew ponied up $1,200 to cover Philmont fees, transportation, lodging along the way, meals, visits to musuems. I did get a few hundred back after the trek but I figure that I had already spent that on souveniers. So yep, $1,200.

 

To get ready for trek we did a monthly training weekend hike, covering between fifteen and twenty miles. The cost for those was about $15 each for food.

 

The best thing about a Philmont trek from a Scouting perspective is that if the adults are doing their job, they don't have much to do. A youth is the Crew Chief and he makes the decisions. The adults are there as advisors and to make sure that no one dies. If the boys want to sleep until noon, we sleep. If the boys make a wrong turn, we get lost. A great learning experience.

 

Was it worth the $2,000 that I had to pay for my son and me? Yes. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. Could I afford it? Not in my current employment situation.

 

Compare it to what people pay to go on cruises or to the Dominican Republic for Spring Break. The difference is that anyone can do those.

 

[Gold Winger]

You're right about the get from A to B as quickly as possible ideas. That is very prevalent in our society in general.

 

I used to belong to a large car club that frequently had "tours" in which we'd head off on a pre-determined route through the countryside or mountains. Cars would start separated by a couple minutes so they wouldn't bunch up. After my first one, I elected to take the tail end Charlie position. Granted we had sports cars but everyone was hell bent for leather to get to the end point as quickly as possible. No one noticed the old barns, the cows, or the little purple flowers.

 

I'm with you. I like to take my time. Look at the trees. Stop to look at a spider web. Etc.

 

As for doing things like climbing on logs. You're young and invincible. I was once young and invincible. If I was by myself or with a group of peers, I might still do something like that. The difference is that now I'm usually not with a group of peers. I'm supposed to be the responsible adult which means that I'm not supposed to let the youth go do dangerous things without safety precautions.

 

Imagine this. You're off with your youngsters and you come across an old long that is 20 feet above a rocky creekbed. You think "Hey, we can do this!" So you and your charges scurry across but the last one slips and falls the 20 feet, dashes his head on a rock and is bleeding profusely. He survives but is severely impaired. Now you find yourself in a witness chair trying to explain why you didn't forsee the possible outcome of walking across a rotting log.

 

 

[beardad]

I don't know where you are located at, but you might try www.nwhikers.net.

 

Like most outdoor enthusiest up here in the Pac NW they are a little crunchy, but they are a good source.

 

I can tell you right now the things they will have a problem with are group size (you shouldn't go in a group of more than 4), being unprepared, and going off trail (again part of the crunchyness) Some of them can be elitest too, but for the most part most on that site are very helpful