Church on Sunday when camping?

[Bob White]

For a number of faiths a worship service is required to contain specific elements of worship in order for it to fulfill their religious obligations. The religions I mentioned are a few among them and represent a large percentage of scouts and Scouters.

 

I do not feel that an Internet forum is the best place to discuss something as personal and as import to many of us as our religion, especially if posters such as Gold Winger will use them to violate his Oath to be reverent. His post was meant to ridicule religions with specific rites of worship.

 

One does not need to have a personal commitment to God in order to be respectful of others beliefs whether a member of the BSA or not.

 

 

Pappy,

Your lengthy reposts of internet articles would almost be bearable if they were at least related to the topic of the thread. Which was dealing with religious obligations on outings.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Trevorum]

Well, I try to learn about, and be respectful of, various religious beliefs even though I don't share those beliefs. I would appreciate a PM from any members who can answer my questions. I am interesed in learning whether some scouts do not camp with our troop because of unspoken concerns about missing their religious obligations, whether on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday.

[Bob White]

It would be impossible for any of us to know that without talking with them. However it is certainly one possible reason as to their behaviour.

 

Perhaps you should ask, and then see what could be done to accommodate the worship responsibilities of the scouts.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Stosh]

On the other hand I am lead to believe that the internet forum of Scouting IS the place to discuss any and all 12 points of the Scout Law, not just the ones we feel most comfortable with.

 

We have a POR in each troop who is the Chaplain's Aide. This person could very easily put together a 15-20 minute time on Sunday AM to direct everyone's personal attention to their God. It could be through scripture readings, Old Testament if there are any Hebrew scouts in attendence, silence, meditation, or comments from the heart. A time for any specific Scout's worship could also be addressed at this time. As for the 7th Day Adventists/Baptist, Hebrews and Muslims, this could be done on Saturday AM as well. A scout will never be harmed by too much of the 12th point of the Scout Law. If nothing else, this is a good place to start a Scout's education on tolerance of others rather than making up stupid zero-tolerance rules.

 

A Scout is Reverent is just as important as a Scout is Clean. If one is going to march the boys off to the showers at summer camp, they had better be prepared (pun intended) to march them off to a time of reverence as well.

 

Stosh

[Trevorum]

Stosh, you're absolutely right. We have a Scouts own on most Sundays. However, I was startled to learn that such a service is useless for some scouts as far as their religious obligations go. I know that some fellows attend a service on Sunday evenings but I was not aware that that it was a "requirement". Our LDS fellows can't camp Sunday mornings and so generally depart camp on Saturday night.

[Bob White]

Exactly Trevorum. As Pappy correctly pointed out as an example, the obligation for Catholics is to attend Mass not just a prayer service. For a worship service to be a Mass it must include certain specific elements, among those is the Eucharistic celebration, and that cannot be carried out as part of a "scouts own" or inter-faith service.

 

But the Catholic Church is not the only one with these types of specific obligations.

[ASM59]

Good Day,

 

This has been a peeve of mine for quite some time. I am not Catholic, Muslim or any of the other called out groups in this tread. I am a non-denominational Protestant Christian and go to a non-denominational Protestant Church. I have obligations and so does my son at our Church. These are not the so called Holy Obligations but things like teaching Sunday School or helping in the Nursery and so forth. I do not take my faith lightly and believe that my place is in Church on Sunday morning when our Church conducts their normal weekly service. To this end, my son and I traditionally would leave a campout late on Saturday evening if the Troop was staying over another night. I later got feedback from Troop leaders that this is allowing a Scout to get out of doing his part to break camp on Sunday morning. There are some who actually believe that we only did this to get out of having to break camp with the others.

The Troop that I am in now doesnt have a hard time with our leaving early at all. They do not offer a Scout Sunday service when they are camping a second night and understand a Scouts or his parents feeling that they need to be in Church on Sunday. After all a Scout is Reverent. I know this means something different to many, but to me it means giving God the right place in my life. One of the ways I apply this is by attending and serving during our Churchs weekly meeting.

 

ASM59

[Stosh]

I do believe that as of Pope John XXIII's tenure that Vatican II indicates that Catholics are encouraged to attend any and all ecumenical worship services to show solidarity in the Christian faith. If I remember back far enough that happened some time in the early to mid-1960's.

 

With that being said with the Catholic Mass being celebrated every day some place or another, i.e. whereever there is a priest, one can fulfill their obligation any day of the week if it's really that important to them, which it should be. I do realize there are regional variances in the teachings of the church, but one must be sensitive to the needs of their unit members.

 

Like the LDS churches maybe there should be "just-for-Catholics" units so they too can leave Saturday night and be able to catch Sunday services at home. Of course that means the boys will never be able to attend Philmont because all treks are over 7 days and unless one's unit leader is a priest, it isn't going to work out very well.

 

Those units that have the luxury of being all one faith, there is no problem with making the appropriate adjustments. However, if the unit is a religious mixed-bag, then the process become a little more difficult. I'm sure that the 7th Day Adventists will feel left out if everyone heads home on Saturday night or Sunday morning, and they have no one to camp with when they show up on their weekend day that's open.

 

A little sensitivity and tolerance goes a long way to show the boys that such diversity does not mean division and with proper understanding from the local clergy I'm sure things could be worked out for the benefit of the boys.

 

At camporees and other outings, the normal push is to get back as soon as they can on Sunday anyway. Unless it's a small parish, they usually have a late morning service within a few miles the boys could all attend before heading home. It might mean getting up and going earlier in the morning and adding an hour on the trip time home, but I'm sure none of the parents would complain because the boys all stopped to go to church.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

You will need to take comfort in the fact that you are doing the right thing.

 

If the Scoutmaster wants you son to take part in breaking the camp down then have him do his portion that night befre he leaves. He should drop his tent and put his troop or patrol gear that he is using away, and police his sight for litter. What more is there to breaking down a site?

 

 

 

 

[mt_goodrich]

I'm am LDS and my troop is sponsored by an LDS Church.

 

True, we do not stay over to Sundays. We usually pack up and head home Saturday afternoon.

 

Exceptions to this will be for Summer Camp that is some considerable distance away.

 

Last year, we went out of council for summer camp (six hours away). Officially, camp check-in began on Sunday afternoon.

 

This is what we did, after getting the appropriate permission from our Bishop:

 

Traveled up on Saturday and had pre-arranged with the Summer Camp to stay there. They didn't mind and we performed a couple of service projects (it was to be first week of camp, so we helped set up a couple of camp sites).

 

The next morning, we got up and got dressed (full Scout uniform) and attended Church at the local LDS Branch. After the three hours of Church meetings, we traveled back to camp and ate sandwiches.

[Ohio_Scouter]

jblake47 wrote:

 

"I do believe that as of Pope John XXIII's tenure that Vatican II indicates that Catholics are encouraged to attend any and all ecumenical worship services to show solidarity in the Christian faith. If I remember back far enough that happened some time in the early to mid-1960's.

 

With that being said with the Catholic Mass being celebrated every day some place or another, i.e. whereever there is a priest, one can fulfill their obligation any day of the week if it's really that important to them, which it should be. I do realize there are regional variances in the teachings of the church, but one must be sensitive to the needs of their unit members."

 

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It's true that Vatican II encouraged Catholics to attend any and all ecumenical worship services to show solidarity in the Christian faith. This, however, does not relieve us of our obligation to attend Mass each Sunday.

 

Fortunately, there are enough Masses throughout the world conducted on Saturday evenings and Sundays that with a little planning and sacrifice, Catholic Scouts and Scouters can still attend Mass during or after Boy Scout camping activities have concluded.

 

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"Like the LDS churches maybe there should be "just-for-Catholics" units so they too can leave Saturday night and be able to catch Sunday services at home. Of course that means the boys will never be able to attend Philmont because all treks are over 7 days and unless one's unit leader is a priest, it isn't going to work out very well."

 

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Regarding attendance on high adventure trips, Philmont, for one, has tried very hard to accommodate the major religions at its high adventure facilities. Catholic Scouts and Scouters have also been granted a special dispensation from Sunday Mass from the Archbishop of Santa Fe. Here is how Philmont handles it.

 

Philmont works with all religious faiths to make possible and encourage full compliance with the 12th point of the Scout Law: "A Scout is reverent. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion." Responsibility for fulfilling religious obligations rests with each expedition advisor for the crew and with each crew member for himself.

 

Chaplains of Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, and Jewish faiths conduct services each day at 7 p.m. at Camping Headquarters. The Trading Post and Snack Bar are closed to avoid conflict with this Philmont religious hour.

 

Expedition advisors receive a schedule of other worship services. Crews may also request a special worship service, which can be arranged if the location is accessible and the schedule permits a chaplain to be there. The chaplains have an excellent kit of material that will help scouts conduct a worship service when they are in the remote area of their Philmont itinerary.

 

Catholic

 

Catholic chaplains are provided by the National Catholic Committee on Scouting. They are available for religious services, Conferences, and confessions. Daily Masses are conducted at Camping Headquarters. Masses are conducted at outlying camps upon request. Scouts and Scouters of Catholic faith who cannot attend Sunday mass due to great distances between their camps and the place of Mass may fulfill their obligation (through a special privilege granted by the archbishop of Santa Fe) by attending a daily Mass at Camping Headquarters the evening before departing for the trail or the evening they return to headquarters from the trail.

 

Jewish

 

The National Jewish Committee on Scouting provides a Jewish chaplain who will conduct services and provide for scouts' religious needs. If scouts require kosher food, you should make arrangements to get the required food shipped to Philmont before your arrival (or bring it with you). Philmont will deliver it to the appropriate commissaries on your itinerary.

 

Mormon

 

A Mormon chaplain is furnished by the National Mormon Committee on Scouting for those of Mormon faith at Philmont. He may be contacted at Camping Headquarters to arrange for special services, counsel, or religious services trail kits.

 

Protestant

 

Protestant chaplains are assigned to Philmont by the National Protestant Committee on Scouting. They conduct Protestant services every evening at Camping Headquarters. Special backcountry services can be arranged. A Protestant chaplain provides leaders of each crew with a kit of suggestions for conducting Protestant devotions and worship on the trail. A devotional booklet and portions of the New and Old Testament are provided by the chaplains.

 

[Gold Winger]

Hey Bob! You do your thing and I'll do mine. Roasted ram is pretty yummy.

[Bob White]

While it is true that masses are available any day of te week, only Saturday Viguil and Sunday masses fulfill a Catholics obligations for participation in Sunday Mass.

 

Vatican II supported and encouraged ecumunism (spiritual dialogue and activity in which the Church engages with other Christians.) with non-Catholic Christians. This does not include ecuminism with non-Christians.

 

Gold Winger,

Please worship as you see fit, but everyone knows that your comments are not truly about your personal worship activities but are posts ridiculing others because of your own distrust of organized religions. It is insulting and it violates your oath to be reverent.

 

Dislike religion as you wish privately, but it is immature and unscout-like for you to insult other people for their sincere efforts to be true to the religious beliefs and their Scout values.

[Hiromi]

"Yah! What Bob Said!"

 

Pappy

[Gold Winger]

Why would you think that I'm not talking about my religious practices. For you to assume that you violate the oath that you hold so dear. Shame on you.