Victonate Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 HI There! I took over the role of Committee Chair in Sept of 2007 in our troop. I was reluctant because I knew of the multitude of problems that the troop faced. I committed myself to the task anyway. I attended Troop Committee training. I also attended Scoutmaster training so I would fully understand what the scoutmaster's job entailed. That is where the problems began. My eyes were opened as to what the problems in the troop were and what to do to fix them. I was concerned why the Scoutmaster was not doing these things. The scoutmaster has very little free time to do the job and also, does not want any unsolicited advice. Taking good advice means more work, and he does not have the time to make good things happen above and beyond planning for 2 weeks out. The other problem here is that his wife (former Cubmaster) is pushing him and doing alot of the work for him. I gave one peice of advice too many and she called and told me to worry about the committee-that the troop affairs relating to the boys were his affair. It is my understanding that the SM works for the CC and the CO. It does not say this directly in any of the litereature that I have read. I assumed that it was my job to ensure that the scoutmaster was implementing a good program for the boys. Someone has to monitor the program, right? My past experiences are the Cubmaster in our affiliated pack for 2 years. The program flourished. I would appreciate any thoughts you may have. Thanks, Victonate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Yes the CC and the CR select and approve the Scoutmaster, while the Scoutmaster does not select or approve the CC or CR. But a healthier way to look at things is not that the Scoutmaster works FOR you but they you work TOGETHER to deliver the Scouting program. But you are right that the CC has a responsibility to evaluate the unit program ad decde with the CR if leadership changes are needed. If you are confident of what needs to be done to deliver the program in a way that meets the goals of the BSA and the charter organiztion then you have the responsibility and the authority to make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Victonate I'll bet that things didn't get to where they are now overnight? So with that in mind, change isn't going to happen at a great rate of knots. While you might have right on your side and it sounds like you do!! You might also be suffering from the "Training High". Cut the SM a little bit of slack. Find a nice way to tell his Lady wife that you do appreciate the help she gives to the Troop, but at the same time tell her to go take a very long hike!! (In a nice way!!) Look at what isn't right and find ways of supporting the SM that will bring about change. Become the resourse guy. Find materials that might help him, find (select) people to come on board and give him a hand. Look for the things he does well and don't be scared of giving him a pat on the back. Sure at times you will have to bite your lip and maybe count to ten or even one hundred. Take it one step at a time and most of all try and enjoy the good things along the way. After all in many ways you set the tone!! Eamonn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Yah, Victonate. Both you and the cubmaster's wife are right, eh? But she's more right. As CC, yeh shouldn't be butting in and micromanaging the SM. Your role as CC is not to give the SM advice - that's the job of your unit commissioner. Your primary job is to run the behind-the-scenes support system for the SM. So if he's a busy fellow and his wife is workin' hard to support him, I'd say the first order of business for a good CC is to try to recruit some ASMs, and to try to mobilize the other committee members to take some of the SM's non-kid load. Perhaps some of the communications or paperwork? Maybe yeh need to recruit an Outings Chair for the committee to help take some of the adult-level planning burden? If yeh haven't done all of that and then some, well, then time to roll up your sleeves and get to work! Ultimately, dependin' on your Chartered Organization and how yeh work, you as CC and/or the committee as a whole may have input on the performance and renewal of the SM. That is something to handle very gently, with a lot of respect and finesse. The man has given years of his life to your program, eh? He's got friends and kids who love him and have stuck with him. Sometimes it's necessary to make a change. I actually encourage units to set terms for unit leaders, so there's natural points where one party or the other can say "hey, I've had enough" or "hey, maybe we might think of switching hats this comin' year." But how yeh go about doing that makes all the difference in the world between helpin' a troop along and tearin' it apart. For right now, mate, yeh need to get about doin' all your job as CC full-tilt. When you've got the Committee humming and the relationship with the CO rock-solid and have pestered the district until they've assigned a really good UC to be a friend to your SM, then you'll have done your part to the point where yeh can clearly see what the additional problems are. Keep up with the trainin' and readin', too, for sure! And welcome to the forums! Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I agree with Beavah that the CC should not micro-manage the Scoutmaster. But it is indeed your role to evalute the troop program and its leaders. One of the great advantages you have of being new Victonate, and having just gone through the training, is you probably recall a lot of what you learned. That's a good thing. You probably remember that the committee is the troops "Board of Directors", and part of the way you support quality program is by making sure you have quality leadership. As everyone has suggested, work with the current scoutmaster to get back on track, but remember that your responsibility is to the quality of the program for the scouts and the CO, not to maintaining a poor leader for the sake of of not hurting his feelings. Every adult volunteer has a term limit, it's called "at the pleasure". The CR serves "at the pleasure" of the institution head. The CC (you) serves "at the pleasure" of the IH and CR. All other adult volunteers serve at "at the pleasure" of the CC and either the CR or IH. While you should always try to work through cooperation and motivation, at some point when the decision comes down to keep the current leadership or chang, you as the CC are 50% of the decision making team, and the IH or CR is the other half. (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Yah, Victonate, you've got some reasonable preliminary ideas here, eh? To offer yeh any further advice we'd have to know a bit about your CO and committee. As you've noticed, the BSA does not assign supervisory duties to the Committee or Committee Chair in any of its materials. As yeh learned in your training, the troop committee's primary responsibilities are supporting the Scoutmaster in delivering quality troop program, and handling troop administration. The committee does have a role in the recruiting and selection of leaders, but all leaders serve at the pleasure of the chartered organization alone. So the phrase you used that the SM works for the CC and the CO would be incorrect. He/she works only for the CO. You work only for the CO. Think of it like being boosters at your son's middle school. You help with the funds and administration. Coach runs the team. You might have input into selecting a new coach when the time comes. But yeh don't hire or fire or supervise the coach. But if the coach is really awful, you might make a recommendation to the principal. How the CO chooses to handle leadership decisions just depends, eh? Sometimes the CO makes those decisions solely on its own, and the committee has no say. Often all of that is tasked to the Committee and the CO is pretty "hands off". That's a scary place to be as a CC, because then you have to go lots of extra distance to be non-partisan, not interested in your own son above other boys, and well "above the fray." Best is if there's some positive interaction and relationships between the two, as BobWhite suggests. If you're in that position and down the road you feel yeh need to recommend/make a change, there's some ways to do it right that are respectful and proper and maintain good feelings and relationships. But start with working hard on your support job, eh? Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 CO's are things and cannot make decisions. The people who represent the charter organizations interests in Scouting are the Institutional Head, the Charter Organizational Representative, and the Committee Chairperson. The Scoutmaster and all other adults are selected and approved by the CC and either the IH or CR. While the committee can advise on these selections only the IH CR and CC have the authority to determine who the leaders will be. Victonate, trust your training not strangers on the Internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Yah, da last line is definitely true, eh? But often it's helpful to talk to folks in order to come to a full understanding of training and materials. That's what friends and fellow volunteers near and far are for, I expect. Don't forget your "near" friends and fellow volunteers, like the unit commissioner and DE and a trusted friend at Roundtable. COs are actually "persons" under the law, because things can't own or operate programs. Such persons make decisions through their designated agents. Whom the CO designates as agent varies quite a bit between COs, which is why the BSA materials are written in the way they are. The proper understanding of the program is that the CO and only the CO approves unit volunteers. That is of course stipulated in the annual charter agreement, and necessary for legal reasons. It's also made clear in the troop committee guidebook (A key function of your troop committee is assisting in the selection...) So da way to understand the process recommended in the guidebooks or training is that the CC signs an application recommending a person to the CO on behalf of the committee. The BSA's guidelines make it the committee's job to screen and select leaders - the CC does not do that "solo." He/she signs only when the committee as a group makes a recommendation. The CO then approves (or rejects) the application/recommendation. That process of committee screening is of course a guideline or recommended practice, and most CO's and units modify it in some way. Some CO's do not use the committee to screen, but may have the IH or COR simply appoint. Some CO's do their own separate screening regardless of what the committee does. Some delegate the whole process to the committee and simply rubber stamp. All that is just minutia for us folks who deal with that level, Victonate, and not something for you to spend a lot of time on. Practically speaking, the way to think about things is that you want any leader transition to be smooth and respectful, with all the necessary parties on-board and well-informed and feeling like they are being treated fairly even if they disagree. How to do that will depend a bit on your circumstances. So after a while of getting the committee ship-shape and a strong unit commissioner involved and strengthened the CO relationship, you might have solved the problems... or yeh might be prepared to make a change in the right way. Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenk Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Troop adults (SMs, CCs, ...) all too often fail to recognize that the troop is run by the PLC and the Scouts. The Scoutmaster's job is to guide them, to ensure their safety, and to make sure they follow BSA policies and guidelines. It is the committee's job is to support them and to make sure that the troop program is functioning accordingly. My son's troop has that problem. The adults are trying to run it like a Cub Scout pack, where the adults do too much of the decision-making and work. Myself and another ASM - who is actually the CR too, now that I think of it - are trying to change that, but its an uphill battle. Our CO is pretty hands-off, so the CR doesn't have much authority in the end. Victonate, can you provide more specifics about what the SM is doing wrong, or simply not doing?(This message has been edited by kenk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Victonate, Stick to your training and the resources of the BSA. While Beavah's explanation is thorough it has little resemblance to the actual contents of the Troop Committee Guide or the Troop Committee Challege training course. Follow the resources of the BSA to give you the most accurate information the Scouting program, and you will be just fine. Remember it is about teamwork more than who is in charge, but when it comes down tto the final say, the CR and the CC are COE and President of the Board of the Scouting program at the unit level. Kenk The program of Troop and Patrol activities is lead by youth. The Scouting program at the Unit, Council, and National level is lead by adults. BW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Yah, Victonate, if yeh actually care about such minutia, I'm happy to chat with you by personal message on how exactly all the training courses and BSA materials actually say and mean what I was describin'. But yeh don't need that, right? When yeh get a chance, if you feel it would be helpful, why don't you share a response to kenk's question - where exactly do you think your SM needs the most help? Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM in NJ Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 I'll jump in on this one too ... actually both beavah and Bob White are correct in a sense. Here is a direct quote from the Troop Committee Guidebook as to the Committee's responsibilities "The troop committee does the following: 1) Ensures that quality adult leadership is recruited and trained. In case the Scoutmaster is absent, a qualified assistant Scoutmaster is assigned. 2) Provides adequate meeting facilities. 3) Advises the Scoutmaster on policies related to Boy Scouting the the charter organization. 4) Supports leaders in carrying out the program. 5) Is responsible for finances, adequate funds, and disbursements. 6) Ensures the troop has an outdoor program (with a minimum of 10 days and nights per year). 7) Supports the Scoutmaster in working with individual boys and problems that may affect the over program. 8) Assists the Scoutmaster with handling boy behavioral problems. 9) Serves on boards of review and courts of honor. 10) Provides for the special needs and assistance some boys may require. Now ... I see the word "support" an awful lot as it relates to the Scoutmaster. I also see "assist" and "advise." Beyond the statement that the CC ensures that quality adult leadership is recruited and trained there is nothing that says the CC supervises or has any dominion over the SM. As a matter of fact the Committee Guidebook states that it is the CO that "owns" the troop and that it is the CO's responsibility to "assure a meeting place, select a Scoutmaster based on the committee's recommendation, appoint a troop committee of at least three adults, and choose a charter organization representative." Now ... the Scoutmaster Handbook states that the "relationship between the Scoutmaster and troop committee should be one of friendship and trust. Difficult issues are sure to confront troop leaders now and then. The Scoutmaster should be able to turn to the committee at any time for assistance, support, and encouragement." Nowhere in there does it say that the SM has to go to the committee or the CC for permission or direction or that the SM "reports" in anyway to the CC. If anything, the way that I read the material - the SM and the CC are on equal footing with the SM in charge of running the Scouting program while the CC is in charge of handling the business end of the troop. With both individuals being in place at the discretion of the CO and the COR. So ... getting to the issue at hand - I think that Victonate should have a long heart-to-heart with the SM as to what each expects from the other. If in fact the SM does not have the proper amount of time to devote to the job then perhaps he should delegate more to his ASMs. If that is not possible then perhaps additional alternatives could be discussed. If that is not possible then the COR should be brought into the discussion as both of yours "boss." At the very least the SM's wife (the ex-CM) should be reminded that she no longer holds that position and should leave well enough alone. JMHO SMNJ(This message has been edited by SM in NJ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Great Friday All Hi Victonate Except for the part where Bob White suggests ignoring the folks on the internet, I agree with his suggestions. They arent over the top in this instance. I give you extra credit for taking the SM Specific course. You didnt say if the SM took that course, but Eamonn is correct that you could also be suffering from a training high. I get it just teaching and it takes a little time getting my feet back on the ground. The thing here is while the CC has responsibility for quality of the program; the Scoutmaster is the soul of the program. The scoutmaster is the philosophical vision for the troop. I once described the Scoutmaster as the Gate Keeper of the Vision. That doesnt mean the CC has to leave the SM unchecked in the way he works toward that vision. I once watched a very savvy CC save the Troop from a law suit because the SM was a bit too protective of his scouts. He was a great SM, but he hadnt learned his limitations yet. She save his rear. She was the best CC Ive seen because she had a way of keeping checks and balances on the SM without having to bring in a lot of drama. She took the SM out to lunch several times to talk about troop business, then she would casually slip in her concerns about the SM performance. Perfection is built from the steps of humility. If you and your SM cant understand that, well then drama will eventually take over. So where does that leave everyone else? Ive always felt that the job of the CC is to find out what the Scoutmasters visions or goals are for the scouts, and then if the CC agrees with the SM, they protect the SM so he/she can build the program toward that vision or goal. The CC needs to make sure everyone learns and understands the vision of the troop. Does you Scoutmaster have a vision or visions for the program and for the scouts? You cant know that until you spend some time with each other talking about this scouting stuff. If he doesnt, then it is time to bring in the adults and discuss it. I personally think that Wood Badge is very good for this very thing. It teaches about visions and team building. Eamonn should have wonderful advise for you in that area. Meanwhile, it is important that you get everyone up to speed with the program. Training is important and I certainly think you will get way ahead there. I do admire you for drudging through Scoutmaster Specific. I personally think all the committee and ASMS should take it because the units are the ones that think with one mind. It can be a painful course depending on who teaches it. But once everyone agrees on the vision and goals, the adults function a lot better. Let drama be your measurement to how fast you approach this situation. If this situation has any kind of negative effect on the scouts or program, than you are going too fast. Backup and come in with a different plan. If you are to have integrity, you have to be logical and professional. You have to approach the situation as a representative of the BSA, not your emotions. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 I never said "ignore" posters, I said "trust" your training and the BSA resources. And while I agree that the latter may often lead to the former, I did not say to ingore posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 The Troop Committee supports & evaluates the Troop program. While you can make suggestions, you shouldn't be "running" the SM. It sounds like maybe the SM has too much on his plate & should consider stepping down since it doesn't seem (from your posts) he has the time to devote to the Troop. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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