Uniform Not Required

[Bob White]

But that does not mean that even a Lone Scout cannot have a profound difference made in his life from the presence of an adult that listens to him, encourages him and taking a sincere interest in him.

 

Does it?

[evmori]

Bob,

You asked & answered your own question.

 

A Lone Scout isn't a Scouting unit. And as posted, requires an adult.

 

Adults associated with the unit huh. Which is required, isn't it. The Scouts associate with the adults & the adults associate with the Scouts. It's a two way street.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Gold Winger]

"Heavy sigh," Mork from Ork.

[OldGreyEagle]

"Says YOU Bob. But scouting by the book is NOT infallible."

 

I have to ask Pappy, where else in life do you throw the book away? When doing taxes, do you throw the IRS taxbook out because its too hard to understand (it is for me I know). When on a campout with your troop and its hard to make mass on sunday, do you throw the religious requirements book to be a Catholic out the window? Where else in your life do you throw out the rules of an institution of which you are a member?

[Hiromi]

Good point OGE,

 

but what I meant was not whole-sale throwing out the book, but that BW's reliance on the methods seems to imply that adherence alone will make scouting successful. It smacks of a Frank Burns-like nose in the Army Regs approach to leadership.

 

I think this is ridiculous. There is common sense, intuition, taste, and a lot of other intangible elements that go into leading adults and boys. Great leaders are usually obedient to rules, and wise breaker of rules. This is because rules fall short of anticipating all contingencies.

 

I have lived long enough to see many examples of by the numbers techniques which lack spirit and vitality. The BSA does a pretty piss poor job, for instance, of adult Cub Scout leader training. Those insipid training videos would scare the dead away from wanting to volunteer.

 

You can have a very by-the-numbers by-the-book mediocrity. You can also have a very unorthodox approach that delivers the ultimate aims of scouting. I personally think that the aims can trump the methods. But as someone said a while back- it is all probably on a continuum.

 

I just find Bob Whites faith in prescriptive scouting to be stiflingly limited and mechanical. Troops and Packs are all very different, and reflect the geniuses and talents and personalities of the locale. Emphasizing one method over another (or even a variation on a method) may be the wisest course in some situations. All situations are not alike. And Bob's belief in the gloriously wise 100 year tradition of scouting should take into account scoutings failures as well (if they are recorded). Bob always blames people if there is a failure in scouting- and never the methods and procedures. He says- oh well- they didnt deliver what the boy was promised. I find this to be a very defensive stance. BSA is not MacDOnalds. The franchise should be adaptable to the CO- which I believe it is.

 

Im all for Orthodoxy when it comes to my faith- but not when it comes to scouting and dealing with boys.

 

Pappy

 

[Bob White]

"Troops and Packs are all very different, and reflect the geniuses and talents and personalities of the locale.

 

Except for the word "geniuses" I do not disagree.

 

"Emphasizing one method over another (or even a variation on a method) may be the wisest course in some situations. All situations are not alike.

 

I also agree with that statement, although I also believe that some volunteers do not understand the diffrence between a variation and a corruption.

 

You see the problem Pappy is that because of your inexperience and unfamiliarity with the actual Scouting program, you seem to misunderstand and misrepresent my posts.

 

 

I welcome you to find anywhere where I have said that all unit programs must be identical, or where I have stated that the methods are not be used based need and situation.

 

It's not that you dislike what I write, it's that you dilike the things you fabricate about what I think.

 

In a very early post to you I wrote about some of the adventures that the units I have served have been on. You said you liked those activities and hoped to do those kinds of things. Well Pappy you have a unit that is either 3 or 5 years old (depending on which post we read) so...what are you waiting for?

 

I have posted very little about the unit I serve compared to what you have posted about the one you say you serve. But here are things we have both shared...

 

You admit that you do not follow the program, I admit I do.

You say you don't like a lot of things about the BSA, I say I do.

You admit your program is losing members,

I admit our membership grows continually.

We go on adventures, you want to go someday.

 

See the difference.

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Gold Winger]

"Im all for Orthodoxy when it comes to my faith"

 

I'm very glad that you've seen the light and are converting.

[Oak Tree]

OGE makes argument #R8, that if you don't follow one rule, you don't feel like you have to follow any. (http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=156126#id_156215)

 

I find this very much to be a straw man argument. The idea that you use your judgement in appropriately applying rules does not mean that you feel no responsibility whatsoever for the rules. "So, sir, you were exceeding the speed limit. Don't feel that the law applies to you? Do you steal, slander, and beat your spouse as well? No...? I don't know if I can believe you...you clearly don't think that laws apply to you."

[Beavah]

Thanks, Oak Tree. I had forgotten about the short-form "argument number" list, eh?

 

scouting by the book is NOT infallible... where else in life do you throw the book away?

 

Are these at all the same statement?

 

Now I'm far from bein' a Catholic, but one of my best friends is an attorney who is also a Catholic canon lawyer, and I find that fascinatin' and a touch amusin'. We have many great discussions.

 

From what I understand, Catholics aren't fundamentalists and don't believe the Bible is infallible, eh?

Instead they believe it should be interpreted in light of sacred tradition.

And the people in the church continue to interpret it.

Only when you put all that together is it infallible.

But I don't reckon they'd say they should throw da Bible away, eh?

 

Seems like Pappy is makin' an argument from his own tradition, of sorts.

The BSA "book", by itself, is not infallible.

It should be interpreted in light of Scouting tradition (as Kudu often brings up as well).

And good Scouters and scouts continue to interpret and apply it in different circumstances.

Only when yeh put that all together do yeh get the best possible program.

That's not throwin' anything away.

It's keeping everything of value.

 

Of course, maybe Pappy is just tryin' to offer da Tridentine Mass of scouting.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Gee Oak Tree,thats not what I intended. I think that if you join a club, I would think you would want to follow that clubs rules. If I join the Shriner's, I would think my fellow members would think it strange if I objected to wearing a funny hat. Thats all.

 

If I join the Knights of Columbus, I should expect a bit of resistance if I want to wear a fur trade outfit to mass rather then the prescribed regalia

 

Then again, do whatever it is that makes you feel good about yourself and call it scouting, as long as your council recharters you, you must be doing it right, eh?

 

[Bob White]

I always find it amusing, and very presumptuous, when persons of one one religion or no religion trying telling us what persons of another faith believe in.

 

I think OGE was on the money. When it comes to driving do you ingore the Rules of the Road or the owners manual for your car?

 

When you need to know how to program a remote control to you ignore the instructions?

 

When you are given a food dish to make do you ignore the recipe before you learn how to make the dish?

 

Before you played a board game did you not take time to learn how it is played?

 

There are instructions for many of the the things we do in order to insure the correct results. Scouting is no different.

 

How do you know when its all together if you never learn what "all together" is? If you put as much energy as some evidently do to NOT follow the program, then how can they ever expect to get the results that the program can get?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

There are instructions for many of the the things we do in order to insure the correct results. Scouting is no different.

 

Nah, I personally think Scoutin' is a lot different, eh?

 

All those things yeh mention are simple tasks. Simple tasks, like changin' a tire, can be scripted. Mostly. There's still quite a bit of judgment about when and where it's safe to change a tire and how to handle frozen lugnuts and such.

 

Boys and girls don't come with manuals. Unlike lugnuts, yeh can do or say something to one kid and it works great. Yeh can do or say the same to another kid and you get a face full of attitude. They're funny that way. They can't be programmed like the TV remote.

 

I figure Scoutin' is more like education. Got that notion from da Rules & Regulations, actually. It's a hard task, and achievin' the goals is a tough, long-term thing with many paths for many different kids and adults. Da kids and parents and CO and local community all interact with us in ways board game pieces do not.

 

That requires a different way of thinkin', if we are goin' to use the program materials successfully. Not throwin' things out. But understandin' things in context.

 

As for religion, I reckon Pappy will correct me if I got it wrong, eh? Always learnin'!

 

Beavah

 

[Hiromi]

I'm just enjoying sitting back and watching you old timers slug it out.

And Beava- so far so good.

 

Infact- the more I grow in scouting, as I have said, the more I come to see the wisdom of much of BSA's methods.

 

But I have seen it so poorly executed (and by the Book) that I initially blamed the book.

 

I am using the book more and more as I grow. But I still am baffled by scouters who sit back and watch bad situations occuring with boys during scouting and seem either unaware or unimaginitve as to what to do. Scouting without instinct and expereince and judgmnent IMHO is dead.

 

Pappy

[Stosh]

Hmmm, I wonder why the Scout leader who doesn't go strictly by the book shouldn't get kicked out by the training police. Maybe we ought to do that with boys when they break any of the Scout Laws. After all these laws aren't guidelines and no variance should be tolerated.

 

It's gonna get lonely by the campfire.

 

Stosh