What really constitutes "bullying"?

[Beavah]

Yah, this seemed a subtext of the other thread, and figured I'd move it to a new place for discussion.

 

The common research definitions of "bullying" seem to be along the lines of "bullying is an act of repeated aggressive behavior in order to intentionally hurt another person which occurs in a social relationship with a difference in power".

 

That's not a bad definition, eh? Repeated aggressive behavior over time with the intention to harm. I reckon we should oppose that in Scouting.

 

But that means it isn't...

 

Hanging out with your friends and inadvertently not including somebody.

Claiming that your weekend campout was more fun than your friend's weekend trip.

Joshing and teasing among friends of equal social power.

Getting annoyed or ticked off at someone over one particular incident.

 

 

Bullyin' to my mind is an act of commission. It isn't an act of omission, where you just miss a chance to reach out and do something kind that you should have done, or don't catch that someone is in a dour mood and needs to be cheered up rather than left alone. It's also an intentional act, not an inadvertent one where you mis-judge someone's ability to handle teasing or a joke or getting hit by a water balloon or whatnot.

 

Not every sad/upset/depressed/grumpy/shy kid is a victim of bullying.

 

Now that doesn't mean that good adult leaders aren't alert for sad/upset/depressed/grumpy/shy kids, eh? Good adult (and youth!) leaders are looking for opportunities to practice being helpful, friendly, kind and cheerful, and to build fellows up. That's part of Scoutin', and if we're not doin' it, shame on us. Might cause us to lose kids; certainly it's us missin' our chance to grow our own character.

 

But it ain't bullying.

 

IMO, of course. What's yours?

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

I guess I wouldn't say bullying always includes an element of harm to the other person, nor do I think it's always a long-term repeated process towards any one person.

 

A bully is basically a totally self-centered person who will maniputlate, intimidate, coerce and cajole anyone and everyone to gain self satisfaction or position in life. If they find certain individuals suseptable to such antics, they can and often times do latch on to them and keep their ego driven domination going for extended periods of time.

 

Taken to the extreme it is often referred to as abusive and would be very harmful. But it doesn't have to be that extreme to be bullying. Putting onself as dominant or more self-important than others sometimes is rather petty. Having to weave in and out and pass every car on the highway to gain a five minute earlier arrival time does in fact intimidate and threaten those on the road. At times it may be dangerous but for sure it is annoying to others who are more socially savvy.

 

In social gatherings bullying may be nothing more than mere annoyance. The person who must hog the discussion or who must "win" every discussion. Somewho they dog others until they give up and the bully gets the last word in. I have seen it on other forums where one gentleman can have 3, 4, or 5 to 6 responses ALL IN A ROW without even waiting for others to enter into the dialog.

 

Bullying is not a problem of the "victim", but of the "victimizer". The self promotion and attitude of superiority taken to the extreme can and will do damage, but when not taken to the extreme remains annoying at best.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

Bullying by definition requires a difference in power as Beavah described. In the case of a disagreement on a forum or even in person unless one party uses physical or social position as a thread to gain concession it would not fit the definition of bullying.

 

On a forum such as this for instance every poster has equal power or lack of power with the exception of the moderators and the side owner. none of whome have shown eveidence of inflicting their power on others for the purpose of personal gain or humiliation.

 

In a unit (as in school) when a youth or adult useses their superior strenth or position as a way to inflict physical or emotional harm on another person that would fit the definition of being a bully would it not?

[FireKat]

I agree with jblake47 in

I guess I wouldn't say bullying always includes an element of harm to the other person, nor do I think it's always a long-term repeated process towards any one person.

 

 

[Bob White]

Why are so many people intent on using partial quotes out of context?

 

What I said FireKat was that "In the case of a disagreement on a forum or even in person, unless one party uses physical or social position as a thread to gain concession it would not fit the definition of bullying." My example was specific to the difference between a disagreement an bullying.

 

As far your statement that what I said would lead to more people to contemplate suicide, how could you possibly make such a connection? At what point did I suggest that anyone brush off the concerns of the victim. I never even talked about that?

 

Here is what Webster says is a bully- "one habitually cruel to others who are weaker"

 

Again it requires the use of power over another. Is campaigning against someone bullying, not by definition. Do you consider any person to ever run for a public office as a bully?

 

If someone forced a person to vote a specific way under thread of harm, that would be a bully. If after an election a Scoutmaster altered the result so that the person who won the vote did not get the office, simply because the SM did not want that scout to win, that would be bullying.

 

Now please, if you choose to cut and paste my words, use the entire quote and use it in context. I think that is a fair request.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[FireKat]

Bob, sorry, As you can see it was removed.

That is what I get for tryoing to post with the flu. Brain doesnt alway work right.

As to ignoring bulling by not reconizing it and it causing thoughts of suicide.... I am having to deal with that now. The school etc says it is not bulling and none happens unless a school offical sees it but it even goes to direct death threats. School officals claim they cannot deal with the bully as he is 'high risk' and disavantaged. That is why I get angry- the school continues to blame the victim and say the victim is the problem (victim has been physically assulted and told it was something he did). Victim belives it and thinks of sucide. School claims the 'bulling problem' has been handle because of 'training' of the staff.  In the last few months there have been 3 assults on campus requiring EMS response but if you ask the school officals they deny the attacks. Also at least on succesful and a few attempted suicides by kids. Problem getting worse. Ask school, they point to paperwork on anti-bulling. Just a head in sand -way of dealing with the problem.

[TheScout]

All this talk about suicide . . . a bit of an overreaction eh?

[Lisabob]

It is not an over reaction if it is a kid you know who is doing the talk, The Scout. From Firekat's posts in this and other threads, I gather that's the situation. Trying to tell a distraught middle schooler to gain perspective and it isn't all that bad, etc., isn't real successful as most middle schoolers simply lack the life experiences to put upsetting incidents in their proper perspective. And again based on what Firekat wrote in her latest post - it sounds like the kid in question is being subjected to physical harm, threats of further harm, and adults in positions of power who refuse to pay attention to it. That poor kid.

 

Firekat writes: "Just a head in sand -way of dealing with the problem."

 

This is my major concern with programs like this too. I think it could be compounded by lack of expertise on the part of adult leaders (whether at school or in scouts) in dealing with bullying situations, and/or by the fact that some adults probably were, themselves, bullies as youth and so simply don't see or understand the issue very well. Done poorly, a "fake" or "on paper" anti-bullying program is worse than nothing because it tells youth to do things that simply don't work and may escalate the problem - it gives them false hope that the adults in question will protect them and then causes them further disillusionment when that isn't the case in reality because the adults don't follow through.

 

Done well, you don't need a "program," you simply need caring adults who pay attention and listen to a kid.

 

So I guess I'm doubtful about this requirement in large part because those units who seem to need it most are unlikely to make it work, while those units who are already on the ball don't really need a program to handle this issue.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Sorry to post twice but - as for exclusion from a group as a form of bullying, this is a pretty common tactic for late middle/early high school girls at least (I'm less sure about boys). When you get a group of girls who were close friends from a young age and then some of them decide to intentionally break off and form their own group minus one former member - no longer talking to/sitting with/doing things with that one member, often including nasty comments or spreading rumors about that former member - then yes, that one person is going to feel betrayed and probably bewildered (what did she do "wrong?"). She may even try very hard to fit in again, but it probably isn't going to happen, leaving her to feel ridiculed for her efforts. This stuff happens with regularity to girls in late middle school and early high school, is more than just friends changing and growing in different directions, and it can be downright mean spirited. I'd count it as bullying because it is an intent to ostracize a single individual - to cut them behind their back for the simple reason that they're no longer "cool" or "popular" or "desirable" as a group member - it is a power game for sure.

 

Whether that's what Scoutmomma is describing or not I am not certain, and it is more insidious than simply forgetting to call a group member and invite them to the movies with the rest of the gang or something like that.

 

 

[scoutmomma]

Lisabob, that's a pretty good description of what was happening in both situations. And because it involved boys instead of girls, they weren't inclined to talk to adults about it, but were both quietly suffering because they were afraid of being seen as "soft." Once brought to our attention in the first case, it was difficult for some adults to get past the "buck up, get over it" mind-set, until it was too late.

[Stosh]

What adults seldom realize when they tell the kid to get over it, it's just a bully, is that what may appear to be annoying to an adult is devastating to a young child. They have not yet experienced and dealt with the bullying tactics of older people. If they perceive a threat, that threat is real! To an adult it may be petty, but for the child it is REAL! Until the adults realize this, they will continually condone bullying. In fact, to the victim, such condoning is bullying in and of itself. This adult will not help, if they are not part of the solution, they must be part of the problem (i.e. threat that this situation will not go away)

 

I'll go on record to say that if an adult ever sides, excuses, or makes excuses for a bully, they are in fact bullies themselves. A victim of bullying is no different than a victim of abuse or rape. Once society realizes this things will change, but not until.

 

Stosh

 

 

[evmori]

Gotta agree with Beav! Bulling is an act of commission not omission. Leaving someone out of your group isn't bullying. Neither is ignoring someone. And bullying can be brought on by the one who is being bullied. That doesn't make it right, though.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[scoutmomma]

To an adult it may be petty, but for the child it is REAL!

 

Exactly. These experiences in our troop really opened my eyes, and made me realize that the important thing is not to quibble with the scout or parent whether we agree that the problem is bullying or not -- the important thing is to recognize when we have a child in emotional distress, and to figure out a way to help. If that means broadening the definition of bullying, then I can deal with that.

[Beavah]

Yah, scoutmomma, you're really confusin' this old flat-tailed critter, eh? Lisabob described a common middle school girls phenomenon where a girl is singled out for deliberate, mean-spirited exclusion (often includin' spreading nasty rumors about the girl). And yeh say that's what was goin' on in your unit. Yet yeh also said:

 

They [the perpetrators] weren't actively excluding him so much as they were just being oblivious and not noticing his distress (he had a tendency to just get quieter and quieter)... One of our ASMs, the father of one of the boys involved, sat all of them down to ask specifically about their behavior, at which point, the lightbulbs all went on over their heads, and they became very remorseful and wrote a group letter of apology to the other scout, which they hand-delivered it to his home. Yeh go on to say the boys felt remorseful about it quite some time later, eh?

 

IMO, that's not what Lisabob is describin'. In the typical case for middle school bullying that Lisabob is talkin' about, it's deliberate, and nasty, and when an adult sits down with the perpetrators there isn't much remorse and the behaviors do not change, they just go further underground. I frankly think that kind of "girl bullying" is worse than what happens on the boy side.

 

Perhaps we need another set of words for "kids who need emotional support but aren't getting it." That's real, eh? I'm sure that's what your first lad was feeling. We should definitely be alert to that sort of thing as Scouters and as parents. I reckon at some level that's why almost every kid leaves scouting - they're looking for some affirmation, and success, and personal achievement, and if they don't get it (or they get it more from soccer or chess club or whatever), then they leave to go find it elsewhere. It's why I recommended da Bucket book to yeh.

 

But I'm not sure I like callin' it "bullying" is all. Bullyin' is becoming a legal and policy thing for kids, even a crime in some places. I just don't think what you describe is something that merits the kind of responses "true" bullying (should) generate - punishment, suspension, explusion, etc.

 

Beavah

 

[scoutmomma]

Beavah wrote:

Yah, scoutmomma, you're really confusin' this old flat-tailed critter, eh? Lisabob described a common middle school girls phenomenon where a girl is singled out for deliberate, mean-spirited exclusion (often includin' spreading nasty rumors about the girl). And yeh say that's what was goin' on in your unit. Yet yeh also said:

 

"They [the perpetrators] weren't actively excluding him so much as they were just being oblivious and not noticing his distress (he had a tendency to just get quieter and quieter)..."

 

Yes, you're right, I did say that. And, on reflection, I guess I was trying to make it sound less our "fault" that this went on so long without our recognizing and doing anything about it. The boy's mother was emphatic that he was being bullied, and we were all pretty defensive about it, and I guess we still are, for my having characterized the situation in a softer way. I wasn't present at the meeting where the ASM sat down with these boys, so I only have his version to go on when I say they expressed remorse -- that, and the conversation with the scout who had his Life BoR this past month, who said he felt bad that he wasn't able to make it right. The 16-year-old, for instance, hasn't shown his face since all this happened and wasn't involved with writing the letter of apology, so I really shouldn't have implied that he felt remorse. (He's a story in himself, that I'm not going to get into.) After all this discussion of the subject, I am feeling more inclined to feel that we were the ones who were oblivious, not the boys. There are more details to the story that I haven't shared, but suffice to say, the bottom line was that we had a boy in emotional distress and we failed him. And again, I say, I have no problem with broadening the definition of bullying if that means our consciousness is raised to the point that we adults recognize and help our kids work through their distress, whether it's "true" bullying or not.