Bad Manners displayed by Adults

[fgoodwin]

I don't know if its bad manners so much as ignorance of BSA regulations.

 

Headgear regulations are covered in BSA publications. The Insignia Guide states that headgear comes off indoors. An exception is that headgear may be worn indoors if one is part of an official ceremony, like the color guard (unless the local religious institution forbids the wearing of headgear indoors).

 

What's so difficult to understand? The only difficult part is that so many Scouters are blissfully unaware of the existence of the Insignia Guide and other BSA literature beyond their son's handbook.

 

I suggest every unit invest the $5-$10 it costs to purchase an Insignia Guide and consult it often.

[gwd-scouter]

Uh, le Voyageur - the tall hat is a mitre, but the yarmulke (zucchetto) is worn underneath, and is different colors - white for the Pope, red for Cardinals, violet shade of red for Bishops.

[mk9750]

Oh my!

 

I didn't mean to start a religous war!

 

What I have learned though, from these responses, is that it is possible that what I thought was a UNIVERSAL rule with very NARROW exceptions may not have been that universal after all.

 

Beavah is right, there are certainly times at which certain clergy were miters and skull caps (I could be wrong, but I don't believe they would be refered to as yulmalkes in the Catholic church). And I am sure there are other times and in other situations where wearing head cover in indoors was not only acceptable, but required.

 

But I was brought up to believe that a man wearing any type of head cover indoors was an obvious sign of bad manners - Much the same as not opening a door for anyone (especially a lady), not standing when someone else entered a room (especially a lady), not offering your seat to someone else (especially a lady and an elder). And I was brought up to believe it wouldn't matter where in the country you went - these expectations would apply anywhere.

 

OK, I admit I don't remember my dad or any of my teachers specifically SAYING that these were universal rules, but that was what I came to accept. And most others in our Troop, and in my circle of friends, seem to have the same understanding.

 

A few folks mentioned that the traditions of the location (in this case, and LDS church) should be observed. And that certainly makes sense. However, it seems unlikely that a church like the LDS, that has some fairly strict traditions, would prefer that no hats be worn (I assume that the rule that we not have carbonated beverages inside the building is another such tradition).

 

OGE suggests the course of action I believed was best "Someone should have told the gentlemen to take off their hats" (at least until I read some of the replies). It is what I wished I had the courage to do. However, it might be possible that by doing so I might be as offensive to someone else as them wearing their hat indoors seems to me.

 

Now I'm REALLY confused!

 

Mark

[Beavah]

Much the same as not opening a door for anyone (especially a lady), not standing when someone else entered a room (especially a lady), not offering your seat to someone else (especially a lady and an elder)

 

Yah, to add to the confusion, doin' this sort of thing for a woman but not for a man will get you an earful for being a misogynistic putz in some parts of the country . Heck, I remember once offerin' my seat to an older woman who responded with somethin' to the effect that I was calling her old and infirm and she definitely was not so I should sit my a** back down!

 

F's notion is probably the best, eh? Try to behave toward others as they wish you to behave toward 'em. And be forgivin' toward us old misogynistic putzes (or anyone else) who doesn't guess the right rule for da situation.

 

Beavah

 

P.S. Oh, yah, and don't forget the insignia guide is online now under Publications at scouting.org. No need to pay $ if yeh don't want to. Headgear regs, of course, only apply to official headgear.

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[FireKat]

Beavah, when was the last time you poked your furry head out of your hole?   Around here no one has been rude to some one offering a seat or holding a door since the early 80s.  It has become respectful for persons of either gender to hold the door for the next person or someone who will have troubles with the door.  The only place I see rampant ignoring of the next person is in the schools.

That old courtesy is returning slowly. I think it is due to the polite response of the person getting the courtesy.  I have even had gentlemen hurry up to a door to open it for me. I always thank them for the courtesy.  I hold doors for others too. When I did this years ago there was few thank yous, but now there is more.  If the few keep plugging at encouraging manners they just might come back.

As to hats -  A&M has a large sign in the entrance of the  student building, it says (if I remember correctly) that hats are to be removed to honor the fallen in wars.

 

[Bob White]

Part of being a member of a multi-cultural, nonsectarian organization, we all come with an understanding of the cultural cutoms we know through our personal experiences and sometimes we forget that these courtesies are not practiced, or even known, by others.

 

Even something as seemingly harmless as "please remove your hat and bow your head in prayer" is based on two customs not practiced by all religions.

 

Perhaps the best we can do is to do the best we know how to do, based on our own cultural backgounds and courtesies, and a willingenss to be be sensitive to the customs of otherws..

 

As OGE pointed out, he did what he felt was the way to show courtesy based on his cultural backgraound and thoise around him understood that. If he was raised in a culture where you kept you keep your head covered in church and his hat was off, I would bet that had someone explained the custom to him that he would have happily complied.

 

The proof of his manners is not in whether he wears a hat or not but in his willingness to do the right thing for the circumstance.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[scoutingagain]

"Yah, to add to the confusion, doin' this sort of thing for a woman but not for a man will get you an earful for being a misogynistic putz in some parts of the country."

 

Well I work in that liberal bastion of Cambridge, MA(don't get caught with a nuclear weapon because they are banned from this city) and use public transportation nearly everyday and see all kinds of behavior both courteous and non-courteous but have never seen the above occur. Most folks behave as Firekat describes with the exception of the hats.

 

SA

[mk9750]

For better or worse, I can remember this scene as well as I can remember my wedding:

 

I was about 13 years old. My father and I went to the bus station downtown to pick up my grandmother, who had taken the bus to go back to her hometown. When we got there, about half the terminal was full. We had the wrong time for the bus arrival, so we ended up sitting in the terminal for about 3 hours waiting. While we were there, the terminal filled up. As it got more and more full, I could feel my dad's eyes as if they were piercing me, but I had no idea what his problem was. This lasted for 10 minutes or so, until my father grabbed me by my ear lobe, and pulled me across the terminal into the men's room. He pushed me into a stall and with the meanest voice I ever heard come out of him told me that he was absolutely ashamed of the job he did as a father. How could a son of his be so rude and inconsiderate to all of the ladies who were standing while I was sitting? Did I not understand that the ONLY polite thing to do was for a man to give up his seat for a lady? And that it didn't matter that it was a black lady, I was still expected to do the polite thing? (My did was a terrific man. But he did have a backward mentality when it came to racial issues. I apologize for him). He dragged me back out of the rest room, made me apologize to the lady (who was now sitting), and told me that if he ever had reason to think I was so impolite again, he'd have to reconsider being my father. It is now 35 years later. I can ASSURE you, that since then, there has never been even one instance when I did not offer my chair to a lady or an elderly gentleman. And I am proud that my father gave me those kinds of manners.

 

If there is a humorous part of the story, it is this. This would have happened within 8 - 10 years of Rosa Parks' bus incident. I must never have seen a picture of Rosa Parks up to that point, but in my mind, Rosa Parks still looks like that lady in the bus station. Whenever they talk about Rosa Parks on the news, it is that lady's face in the bus station I see. And when it happens, I kind of look up to the sky and thank my dad for his lessons.

 

Mark

[Stosh]

Beavah,

 

One has to remember from your unfortunate experience, one must offer one's seat to a LADY. With a verbal exchange you received, it was obvious courtesy and lady-like manners were not part of her makeup.

 

Courteous people give and take courtesy graciously.

 

At an age where AARP is hounding my steps, I still offer my seat to ladies and the elderly. If people have a problem with that, well, they have the problem, not me.

 

Stosh

[Gunny2862]

Are college students adults?

From the midsection of the country where we are often accused of being behind the times...

I still hold doors open and thank those who do it for me, but, I am equally as likely to be castigated(occ. at length) by a female for holding the door for her as to be either shoved past/ignored/or thanked. I try not to categorize the ruder ones as radical feminists but rather just as rude people.

 

On the hat issue, I would much rather be approached and informed that I was possibly not aware of the practices of the house of faith I was in than to be allowed to continue to offend those whose practices I was violating. Especially since continuing to violate them reflects poorly on both myself and my Troop and the BSA - and since I don't know, makes it improbable that I would correct the Scouts behavior by informing the SPL.

While informing someone else of a social gaffe it is just as important to have good manners as at any other time. The approach you take could yield wildly different results even if the person you were informing of the gaffe was clearly wrong.

 

Naval(and Marine Corps) traditions preclude the wearing of hats indoors unless one is under arms(carrying a weapon and/or in the performance of one's duties). The Army both wears hats and salutes indoors. I'm not sure about the Air Force - I think they follow the Army traditions in this area.

 

 

[TheScout]

The Army does not wear cover or salute indoors . . .

 

 

[Gunny2862]

I stand corrected on the wearing of the Army cover...

 

AR670-1 states.... Soldiers will wear headgear with the Army uniform, except under the following circumstances:

(1) Headgear is not required if it would interfere with the safe operation of military vehicles. The wear of military

headgear is not required while in or on a privately owned vehicle (to include a motorcycle, bicycle, or convertible

automobile), a commercial vehicle, or on public conveyance (such as a subway, train, plane, or bus).

(2) Soldiers will not wear headgear indoors unless under arms in an official capacity, or when directed by the

commander, such as for indoor ceremonial activities.

(3) Male and female soldiers are not required to wear headgear to evening social events (after Retreat) when

wearing the Army blue and white uniforms, the enlisted green dress uniform, the Army green maternity dress uniform

(females only), or the mess and evening mess uniforms.

(4) Soldiers will carry their headgear, when it is not worn, in their hands while wearing service, dress, and mess

uniforms. Soldiers are authorized storage of the headgear, when it is not worn, in the BDU cargo pockets. Soldiers

must fold the headgear neatly so as not to present a bulky appearance. Soldiers will not attach headgear to the uniform

or hang it from the belt.

 

However,

I've seen the Army folks saluting indoors far too often to believe that it is also prohibited. The wearing of a cover indoors thing must have been a local option thing done by the Army commander.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Eagledad]

>>On the hat issue, I would much rather be approached and informed that I was possibly not aware of the practices of the house of faith I was in than to be allowed to continue to offend those whose practices I was violating. Especially since continuing to violate them reflects poorly on both myself and my Troop and the BSA -

[Herms]

HATS OFF to you all for keeping the Scout Law - Courteous alive in our youth!

[SSScout]

Alphonse and Gaston...

 

"Hat Courtesy" is a small but interesting historical item.

 

Way back when, in Britain at least, it was 'expected' that the male would doff/tip/take off his hat (and everyone wore a hat out of the house) to his 'social superior'. If one met the mayor of the town, or the Lord of the manor or a rich merchant or the priest, it was expected that the hat would come off as a sign of respect if not subservience.

About 1650, the Quakers decided that if all were equal under God's eye, then hat tipping was contrary to God's will (equality of language: the use of 'thee, thou and you' is for another time). Many Friends were taken to court and thrown in jail for refusing to show "hat courtesy" to their "betters". Made no difference that there was no law requiring it, the magistrate would order them jailed none the less. The Quakers continued this into Meeting for Worship. Hats stayed on unless the Friend was moved of the Spirit to speak and then he would rise and take off his hat before speaking. Women were expected to be modestly covered with bonnet, the size of which would be determined by a committee of elders. If a woman was moved to speak, her bonnet stayed on.

Modern Friends have mostly dropped the old traditions. You would be hard pressed to find any hats at all, on either gender, in a Friends Meeting or Church.

 

So in some faiths the men go bare headed and the women are expected to be covered. In others, the men are hatted, the women shawled. Or not. Unless the altar table is being moved or the plaster is being repaired. Or we are having worship in the classroom because the santuary is unheated, and hats are okay to keep warm. Or we are in uniform doing a service. Or not. Or if prayers are being said.

 

So we teach our Scouts respect and sensitivity to the folks we visit and ask forgiveness of our ignorance of the traditions of others.

 

WB: Cover in back belt when undercover.

 

Howcum alot of kids don't like hats A-tall?