Bad Manners displayed by Adults

[mk9750]

Our roundtable, which is usually held at an LDS church in their gym, had to be moved to the worship area because of a scheduling conflict. Last night, while we were all sitting in the pews, I noticed three different male Scout leaders with hats on. One was a bush style hat, the other two were ball caps (one was a BSA themed hat, the other not).

 

First, what has happened to our society that men wearing hats indoors has beome acceptable? Second, even if it has, why would anyone continue to wear one inside a church? and third, how out of line would I be if I were to mention to these "gentlemen" that hats are inappropriate indoors, especially in a church?

 

I know a few will say that times have changed and such. My response to that will always be that manners do not change. What was proper 20 years ago is still proper today. Perhaps this may seem like a small issue to some, but it is a deterioration in acceptable behavior that has led to the downfall of many civilizations in history.

 

Even if I don't get an answers, thanks for letting me vent.

 

Mark

[OldGreyEagle]

This does along with the thoughts engendered in the Thread, What has happened to Courtesy?. I know as a Roman Catholic, I would never wear a hat in church, any church. The Church that Charters the Troop I serve is Moravian. They do not require hats to be off in their sanctuary. During a Troop meeting, I was asked to help move a table off their altar as they were setting up for a wedding. As I walked into the sanctuary, I took off my hat, the person who asked me to help gave a quizzical look as if to ask why I removed it and I said "I'm Catholic" he smiled and said, "Yeah, that's right". We moved the table with two other members of the church, both sporting ball caps and I went back to the meeting, hat on after I got out of the sanctuary. Its a question of what is acceptable to the faith. If its the LDS tradition to have males remove head gear in their church, then having it be announced is good manners as not all might realize it. I understand about wearing a ball cap indoors is generally not proper, but then again I just said I was wearing one during the scout meeting.

 

Someone should have told the gentelmen to take off their hats

[allangr1024]

mark,

 

How many men wear any kind of hat (other than perhaps a ball cap) these days. The art of wearing headwear has long been gone.

 

So, how are men to know anything about proper headwear etiquette. No one is teaching this in school, church, government, or society in general. The rules may not have changed, but they are irrevelent, since the activity is not practiced any more.

 

If you are really bugged about it, volunteer to do a presentation to the roundtable, in the guise of adults teaching the boys proper use of the uniform, on the points you are making here. I would not like to be lectured to on a matter like this, but if you do it as an educational service, then the etiquette challenged amoung us may say to ourselves "Oh, I did not know wearing this is disrespectful".

 

 

[Lisabob]

Interesting. The only place I've ever been (as an adult) where anything was explicitly mentioned about headgear was at Woodbadge. And incidentally, the "no hats indoors/under dining fly" expectation there was applied equally to women.

[Gold Winger]

There's a no cap/hat rule in the dining halls at summer camp and at Philmont.

 

However, I've noticed that men just don't know to take their hat off anymore. Go to any restaraunt and look around. Okay, maybe not Chez Expensive but anywhere from McDs to Appleby's.

 

There is the question of whether Scouts should remove their caps indoors. There's a website out there someplace with discussion of that topic. There are pictures in old handbooks showing Scouts in meetings wearing their hats.

 

I usually take mine off.

[AvidSM]

Every summer camp I've been to it's hats off in the dining hall. No formal reason for it is given. I have heard it's "out of respect" for "scouts that have given their all".

 

Did this rule originate in the military service? I know that in the Navy/USMC, you remove your cover (hat) when indoors. I think it's a matter of practicality - your cover protects your head from the elements when outdoors and is not needed and so should be removed when indoors.

 

As a male catholic, I know about our hats-off-in-church rule. Don't know for sure about the other religions - I think males keep their hats on in a jewish temple. I believe you should respect the rules of the place you are in. If it's hats off in a LDS church, then that's the rule that should be followed. Just point to the fellow's head with the hat on and make the universal "take your hat off" jesture.

 

 

[FScouter]

The Scout hat is part of the uniform and it is appropriate to wear it whenever the uniform is being worn, indoors or out. Churches may have a hats off custom, which should be respected. The Insignia Guide has a discussion about when to wear the uniform hat and when to take it off.

[gwd-scouter]

Men were expected to remove hats whenever they went indoors, not just for church but anywhere. That's what I learned growing up. That's what my brothers learned. Sadly, that courtesy just isn't seen anymore. I wonder, though, if it is more prevalent here in the South. Everywhere I go I see men and boys indoors wearing ball caps. In fact, it is unusual to actually see a male around here without a ball cap. It especially bothers me in restaurants, but as long as my guys are following what I learned was customary courtesy I guess that's all I can do. We do have a restaurant in town, not fancy shmancy but nice, that has printed along the bottom of every page of their menu that ball caps are not allowed in the dining room.

 

The first time I saw that I wondered to myself why in the world the owners felt it necessary to print the statement.

[Beavah]

Yah, I reckon this is an odd courtesy thing that really isn't universal even though some folks think it is.

 

In western states and places like Texas, males wearin' hats indoors is often accepted. Seems I remember LBJ wearin' a cowboy hat at the Democratic Convention there, eh?

 

Cooks, food serves workers, and waiters in many restaurants are expected to wear hats indoors as a condition of employment service.

 

Even OGE's Catholic example doesn't hold that much water. I've been to Catholic ceremonies for kids where the bishop is wearin' a big hat or a yarmulka in the church da whole time, and Knights of Columbus are in uniform with hats and swords and fezzes and whatnot. And of course if you're a jewish lad or leader, wearin' head covering would be what is considered respectful and courteous, not the other way around, eh?

 

In outdoor circles, there's an informal rule if you're in da field that if you wear a hat you keep it on. Part of Leave No Trace. Saves everybody lookin' at your matted, greasy hair. Lots of workin' folk follow that rule, too, if they go out for a drink after work. Seems like that rule should apply to summer camp, eh? And of course da BSA Insignia guide specifies that headgear be worn inside for formal ceremonies and service, as F indicates.

 

So I reckon this is just one of those things that was probably never universal, and has become more rather than less acceptable with time.

 

Me personally, I think courtesy is defined by how we treat others, not so much by what we wear, particularly if we're not trying to make a statement with our clothing.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

Beavah, that has to be one of the most disrespectful posts of yours in a long time. You know very well a yamaka is a Jewish term, the word you were searching for is Miter, the Bishop hat and as I am not now nor have I ever been a bishop I would not have had an occasion to wear a miter in the church. And the Knights of Columbus is an organization closley associated with the Catholic Church which has its own traditions and is not part of the usual behavior.

 

If you feel need to point out my perceived errors, go right ahead, but keep the slams of my religious beliefs out of it. I would think a person who preaches being couteous to others would taken a diferent approach.

[FScouter]

One of the ways we courteously treat others is by respecting their customs. If the custom of the fancy restaurant is shirt and tie, we show courtesy to everyone by wearing shirt and tie. The slob wearing a tank top, grubby ball hat with obscene logo, and torn sneakers isn't courteous even if he says please and thank you.

[Beavah]

Yah, OGE, no disrespect intended, eh? I'll confess to ignorance, though. Now, if it's your habit to castigate the ignorant, then feel free! I won't be offended.

 

I can't say I understand or fathom all the rules for courtesy or protocol in a Catholic ceremony. When in Rome I mostly try to do Roman and sit and stand and sing at the right times, eh? I'm there to support the lads and the units I work with, not really to participate in the ceremony, though I certainly join in the prayer where I understand it.

 

But those were my honest observations, eh? Head coverings on clergy, even on male laity were accepted - indoors, in church. So what you describe doesn't seem like a universal rule of showin' respect or reverence toward God, eh? Perhaps regular folks doff their lids to show respect for the churchmen?

 

And that bishop (and the guy next to him), he had a red scullcap/yalmaka on even when he took off his miter. Maybe he wasn't supposed to, but he did.

 

My only point being that the protocol for hats seems pretty complicated in both churches and in the world, and we probably shouldn't be gettin' our shorts in a twist about it.

 

Ignorance ain't quite the same thing as discourtesy.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[gwd-scouter]

The Pope, Cardinals and Bishops do wear a yarmulke as an acknowledgment of Christianity's roots in Judaism.

[le Voyageur]

 

 

 

 

Since I'm a pagan and my church is the outdoors, I guess I should ask all you to remove your hats before entering, hey...

[le Voyageur]

 

 

uhhhh gwd-scouter....that's a miter, not a yamulke'