When is it apropriate...

[Eamonn]

I would hope that we as Scouter's would do our best to set a good example.

This would mean that doing our best to avoid swearing, cussing, and words that others find offensive would be a given.

As for a "BSA policy". - I for one am happy to use the oath and law for most situations. My thinking is if we had a policy for everything? The Policy Book would be a very heavy tome and even then people would still play word games and pick holes in it.

So my answer on the question "When is it apropriate..."? Is never.

I'm a little lost with this talk about "White-collar"? I do understand that sometimes we (Me) can and do get the wrong end of the stick.

My Mother, lived in England for a very long time but just as I have never lost my English accent, she never lost her Irish accent. At times she would call someone " The Quare Fellow" (As in the title of the play by Brendan Behan). While maybe today it might be said that she was calling someone a nasty name. At that time and the way she meant it was her way of saying that someone was 'strange' or 'unusual'.

 

Carl, you ask about staying with Scouting and passing on the skills that you have.

A frequent complaint that is voiced by Scout leaders is that Councils and Districts try a little too hard to start new units in areas where they feel there are already enough units. I mentioned this to someone once and the reply I got was that there should be enough units so that if a boy doesn't like one he should be able to go to the one down the road, till he finds one that he likes.

I would hope that the same holds true for adults.

There are several Boy Scout Troops in my area that I'd be happy to some kind of a leader in, sadly there are one or two that might not be such a good fit.

You might want to attend a few Boy Scout Roundtable meetings, get to know some of the people there, make a few friends and see what happens?

Eamonn.

[FireKat]

Carl, As much as you wish to avoid 'petty politics', those little critters will get you no matter where you go. Decide if you wish to put your time and effort into the old troop or a new one. Evulate the pros and cons of each. Check out some others too. Either way take your patients with you, eays and ears open and a can of your best 'tic spray.   Best wishes and lots of luck. Most of us will still be at this fire to do the best we can to help.

[evmori]

On the original question, I agree with FireKat - NEVER.

 

Not sure there is a BSA policy that deals with this?

 

Bob White you seem to be the BSA policy expert, is there a BSA policy that deals with EO2(SCW)Ploense's original post?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

Carl, if you do decide to work with a new troop (either an established one or your own), please do all the boys a very large favor and leave the anger and hurt and other "baggage" from your son's troop well behind, first. Venting has its place but it can poison the atmosphere too.

[scoutingagain]

Carl,

 

I kind of sensed much of what you've posted here is a much a vent as anything. This is a good place for that. You may get pulled aside and asked "are you feeling OK?" ala Bob White's suggestion once in a while. But overall venting in a forum like this is pretty benign and can be constructive. I'm sure there are many scout units out there that would welcome your assistance. The best suggestion I have would be to contact your district or council and offer your assistance. They can steer you towards a unit that would welcome your help.

 

Regarding your question though. Scouting is not an appropriate place for vulgar language. Period. I think Bob White's approach is a well thought out approach and no I don't believe there is any policy other than the Scout Oath and Law.

 

However, there is a wide range of socially accepted language across the country and across socio-economic groups. None of that excuses the use of such language in scouting. I might have a little forebearance with a construction foreman from Brooklyn who is trying to amend his behaviour in front of scouts who would simply be speaking as he would naturally. I doubt I'd threaten to call the CO or Scout Executive and report such an individual. In his cultural environment using certain four letter words as adjectives is no different than someone from France speaking with a French accent and is perfectly acceptable in his normal social environment. That's not the same as directed foul language at an individual. That allows for the forebearance I spoke of, not an excuse to continue. I would probably continue to remind the individual to watch his language.

 

Having prejudices against those of us from the heathen North for the way we may speak is no different than some ignorant Yankees who naturally assume anyone with a southern accent is less than educated.

 

But profanity directed in anger at any individual, adult or youth, should not be tolerated in any circumstances.

 

SA

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

What constitutes acceptable language is on a sliding scale, some might even call it a continuum (I.E. me). In some situations, the phrase "Jane you ignorant sluggard" may be quick humorous, while in others it is humorless.

 

Back when I joined the Troop I serve, I noticed quite innapropriate language comming from the youth. When I remarked this to the Troop adults, they said they didnt notice. So, they started to notice and did agree there was an issue. It took some time, but we curbed the use of inappropriate terms. My son told me some of the kids still talked that way and I told him it didnt matter, as long as they were aware what words were acceptable and which were not, I was fine with it. You can ask someone to pass the butter, without descrbing it's relationship with its female parent

[Gunny2862]

To the original question, I don't think it should be generally accepted.

 

After 21 years of service in the Marine Corps I was continually amazed at certain people who seemed not to (literally)comprehend simple directions that did not include profane insertions as verbs, adverbs, nouns, even as past participles. But they weren't boys or Boy Scouts.

 

However , I attempted to remain above the fray as much as it was possible to do and still accomplish the full complement of my assigned missions. So when I did delve into my profane bag of tricks - everyone noticed and responded with surety and alacrity. I also wasn't and am not a screamer/yeller - if you use it all of the time then you can't ramp it up a notch that way either. A change in tone and a steely look can accomplish wonders if it's not overused too.

 

I don't foresee any normal situation where the same tactics should come into play, but IF we are way back in the back country and things are going south quickly(in the lowest point of a draw and the weather radio says flash flooding in the area has been sighted)and some degree of additional motivation is required to help ensure the physical safety of all involved then I don't think that I would rule it out after the change in tone and then the elevated voice levels didn't get the job done. It would certainly be better than actually punting someone in the posterior to get the message across that lagging was not going to be acceptable in the given circumstance(getting out of the draw).

 

But at regular campouts and/or meetings - I don't think it should be necessary. A meeting and additional PLC or adult intervention should do anything that needs to occur in these situations.

 

So for me it's not a black and white issue, is it better if avoided, YES. Should it ever be directed at the denigration of a person or their character, NO.

Should an adult leader ever lose their composure? NO. Especially if treading into areas where one is employing a tool like raising their voice to a yelling/shouting modality or the use of profanity.

It would be like losing your composure while trying to do First Aid - likely to cause more problems than you are fixing.

[Eamonn]

While I have never used profanity at a scout. -Well not yet!!

I do have to be careful. At times I have been known to use words and phases that others might think are harmful or are intended to cause harm.

While most of the youth I deal with do know me and I know them! At times, especially with newer Scouts I do have to remember that these words can be taken the wrong way.

There is one Lad in the Ship who teases me for telling him not to be "A lazy toad". One girl in the Ship has worked out that a lot of the stuff comes from " Wind in the willows" I do however no matter what I'm thinking not call any of the Scouts "Rats" or "Ratty"!

Ea

[ElyriaLeader]

I think a lot of people on this thread are missing the point by focusing on the language being used. But rather should be focusing on the adult verbally belittleing (some would insert the word "abusing" here) the scout, which is the only thing I can think was being done if he was using profanity, in which case the adult should be quietly taken aside and informed that he needs to: A)Never talk down to a scout, and especially not using profanity. B)Apologize to forementioned scout AND anyone who witnessed the outburst for his poor behavior. C)Reevaluate why he is in scouting for. And if this continues to occur then it would be prudent to take further action against him.

[ScoutNut]

I really doubt that anyone here is missing the point.

 

I also really doubt if anyone would actually be in favor of an adult using profanity toward a youth under any circumstances.

 

Th initial question was rather rhetorical.

 

That means that this group has to find SOMETHING to "discuss".

 

Otherwise what fun would it be?

[ElyriaLeader]

I also really doubt if anyone would actually be in favor of an adult using profanity toward a youth under any circumstances.

I never said anyone was in favor of this. Nor did anyone else on the thread as far as I can see.

Th initial question was rather rhetorical.

I didnt see it as rhetorical: Rhetoric (from Greek ῥήτωρ, rhtr, orator, teacher) is generally understood to be the art or technique of persuasion through the use of oral language and written language.

Didnt notice any persuasion in the question, just someone seeking help with an answer.

That means that this group has to find SOMETHING to "discuss".

Never noticed the group having difficulty finding something to discuss

And this forum always has something fun going.(This message has been edited by ElyriaLeader)

[ScoutNut]

rhetorical -

 

- used for, belonging to, or concerned with mere style or effect

 

- asked merely for effect with no answer expected

 

 

rhetoric -

 

- verbal communication : discourse

 

Ahhh - But I did see ALL of the above.

 

 

 

 

[frank10]

"When is it appropriate for an adult leader to use profanity at a scout?"

 

Ok, took me most of the day but here goes... The ship is on fire, engines are about to explode every one else has begun to swim to safety and the lone scout on deck is frozen with fear and won't jump in to the water...

 

Still not appropriate but may useful and forgivable.

 

(Not sure why the engines would explode, but they always do in the movies.)

 

 

[Crew21_Adv]

Fellow Scouters,

 

 

Let me reflect inwards, rather than telling what I've seen others do, I'll tell you about a few of my challenges.

 

I have been Scouting for nearly 30 years (about 24 years as an adult Scouter). It seems I have seen the good and the bad.

 

Can adults loose composure in front of Scouts?

 

A couple of bad experiences I have had....

Years ago, I had a 15 year old Scout knock my own 11 year old son out. No reason, he thought it would be funny to take a swing at him. As I watched my son on the ground, I was about ready to put the 15 y/o thru the wall. I pinned the 15 y/o to the wall, but did not strike him. It was close, but I resisted.

 

Still a few years ago. As my family moved to a new location, we looked for a good Troop to join. We enjoyed certain aspects of our current Troop. The younger Scouts (and their parents) thought there was a Troop meeting plan (the 7 part plan that we are familiar with).

 

Sometimes I question what a few of the parents are thinking. They drop their teenager off to a Boy Scout Troop meeting and drive off. Their Scout gets out of the car, no uniform, no handbook, but a football or basketball in their hand. I know what these boys are thinking. But don't the parents know its Scouts, and not football or basketball practice?

 

When the school year started, a few of the older Scouts returned. They thought the Troop meeting plan had two parts, an short opening and then an hour and half of football. I let this by until we moved into our new home.

 

After sewing new patches on my old Scout shirt. These older boys saw my Scout uniform, but they did not yet know me, and I did not yet know them. After the football hit a committee member and a full body tackle occurred on the troop committee table. I scooped up the football.

 

Suddenly two 16 y/o Scouts, got in my face (about 2 inches from nose to nose). And use a few profanities towards me. My first thought was to slap the snot out of them. I barely maintained composure "Are you serious?! Give me a break and get out of my face, right now!".

 

For the next few years, I had a specific nickname used by the older Scouts. My own boys would hear it from time to time.

 

Our troop believes that the Scouts should burn off some energy. Most of our meetings have a game or interpatrol activity, which reinforces the Scout skill. Although once a month we let them play a game just for recreation. Our Interpatrol activity or game is during the final 10 minutes. So they know its coming, but it will not occur till the end of the meeting.

 

But we still have to watch the Scouts like a hawk, cause it only takes one Scout to break a basketball out of a gym back or backpack faster than you can blink.

 

Still, we ask why the parents don't remember their handbook, but these same Scouts can easily remember a football or basketball.

 

Even though the Scouts had changed, a couple of years ago, another adult leader grabbed a basketball that had come flying into the Troop Committee table. He has now inherited my former nickname.

 

Now, about loosing composure in front of a Scout. It happens. Everyone has their tolerance. It may be a short fuse or a long fuse. But a cocky teenage Scout, thinking that he is scaring you and cursing in your face does not help.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[AK-Eagle]

As a rule I make a strong attempt to not to use profranity around the scouts and will call the scouts if I hear them using them freely.

That being said last summer when I "found" a tree root with soft shoe covered middle toe late at night (Broken in two places) the scouts knew without any doubt that it wasnt just another first aid drill.

 

To paraphrase one of the younger scouts "I didnt think you knew how use "those words" so well!"

 

AK-Eagle