How much should Faith inform Scouting?

[packsaddle]

"...I don't expect to convince Pappy to let his son becaome a Buddhist if that what he wants to do."

Balderdash. I agree that you can't necessarily convince Pappy of something. But while Pappy might be able to suppress his son's expression regarding whatever thoughts and belief his son has, his son will (and does) have the ability to decide for himself what he chooses to believe. Pappy, ultimately, can only hope it will be one thing or another. His son, ultimately, can tell Pappy to take a flying 'leap' at a rolling donut.

[Hiromi]

You'll get no argument out of me. My son, when he is of age- can choose what direction he will take. I know the length of my power over him. And I know that you can only come into Christ of your own free will.

 

But I am duty bound, as are his God-parents, to insure that he has been brought into the fullness of the faith.

 

I think we all have the tendencey to take from people's words what meanings we choose to consider, and filter out or simply ignore the rest.

 

"There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church which is, of course, quite a different thing."

Foreword to Radio Replies Vol. 1, page ix Fulton Sheen

 

P.S. FWIW This thread probably would have been better categorized as an Issues and Politics subject.

 

 

Pappy

 

[Trevorum]

"... his son will (and does) have the ability to decide for himself what he chooses to believe." Balderdash. After two decades of indoctrination (some would say 'brainwashing') few people are truly able to make their own decisions in these matters. That's precisely why the big (and "successful") religions put such a great emphasis on "catechesis".

[Venividi]

Please stay on topic or spin off a thread to the issues and politics section.

thanks

[Bob White]

Getting back to the topic and clearing up what I think is a misrepresentation of what the scouting program is.

 

Religious belief is undeniably a part of scouting. You cannot read the BSA Oath, Law, or Declaration of religious principle and not understand that being religious is and has been a part of Scouting since its beginning.

 

Can anyone point out anything, anywhere, in the BSA training or BSA resources that says the BSA is secular?

 

It does not exist that I am aware of. What you will find is that the BSA is "nonsectarian" and there is a HUGE difference in definition between nonsectarian and secular.

 

How should Faith inform scouting, it should not, Scouting should each scout the opportunity and examples for developing a religious belief of their choosing and give them guidance by example and opportunity to give service to God.

 

It comes back to selecting the right people as scout leaders.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[packsaddle]

"How should Faith inform scouting, it should not, Scouting should each scout the opportunity and examples for developing a religious belief of their choosing and give them guidance by example and opportunity to give service to God."

I quite agree.

 

As for that 'brainwashing' thing....Oh hogwash! (OK, Trevorum, I would have said, 'brainwash' but you already stole that one) Your argument has the feeling of assigning a causal relationship to a correlation.

Anyway, if your argument is that with sufficient effort, a young person can be persuaded to close his mind to options, I tend to agree. But that will always remain a conscious and calculated decision on his part...to keep his mind closed. If people make that choice because it is easy or feels good or whatever, I can't put all the blame on some zealot for that outcome...some of it must go to the 'deciders', who you must admit, have the ability to open their minds if they want.

Perhaps this is just a difference of perspective between us...or is it going to be horse turds at 20 paces?

[Beavah]

And in the dark of night in our car on the way home from various scouting events over the years, I've had the most amazing and sometimes even profound conversations with my son about why people pray, different practices and forms of worship/belief, the nature of our creator, whether or not "hell" is real, and a host of other religious topics. These often spring from some comment or action that happened at a scout meeting or camp out, and usually he starts these conversations, not me.

 

There it is. That's the ticket, eh?

 

I reckon faith should as welcome and comfortable a part of Scouting as it is a part of people's lives. Expressed, talked about, used to inform choices, present in thankfulness and celebration, comfort in hardship and sorrow. It should just be... normal. One of the things that's part of us.

 

I confess I like it when I see units do more than the minimum in most areas, but this one especially. Yeh can tell an Eagle Candidate from a troop that made "Duty to God" something meaningful, to be thought about and struggled with. There's something powerful to prayer in the backcountry meadow, to putting your hand to service in a project and then putting your heart to service in prayer for those who need that kind of "project."

 

I don't reckon good parents indoctrinate children, eh? If they do, all they get are rebellious teens. . But good parents do teach children, and share with 'em. Whether it's how to do arithmetic or sayin' the Our Father together, I expect it's an act of kindness to teach kids what we know.

 

I encourage most units to think more deeply about how Duty to God and Reverence fits in with their "lived life" in Scouting.

 

Beavah

 

[SSScout]

"Brainwashing"

 

I have come to the conclusion that we teach our children, either actively thru instruction OR passively by example (rather we realize it or not) a religion that they will either ACCEPT or REBEL against. That is THEIR role/duty and they will do one or the other, whether they consciously choose, it will happen. Accept Christ? Become a Wiccan? Om nio rengeyo? (Buddhist chant) They will pick up or discard what is useful, trendy, popular, logical, easy, available, but first they will see the religion of their upbringing.

Ku Klu Klansmen have become Jews. Taoists have become Christian evangelists. Quakers have become Catholic priests. Rabbis have become Buddhists.

And what does it all mean? Religion certainly DOES "inform" Scouting. BP was very right. Many times. I'll not quote him again.

 

But ultimately, as to religiosity, yer pays yer metaphorical money and yer takes yer cherce.

 

" It is a sad reflection, that many Men hardly have any Religion at all; and most have none of their own: For that which is the Religion of their Education, and not of their Judgement, is the Religion of Another, and not theirs."

== William Penn ==

 

It is our duty as Parents to teach our children The Truth as we know it, and how to be responsible for the results of ones choices. They will soon enough discover their own Truth, and the results thereby will be theirs to accept as their own.

 

 

 

[Nessmuk]

Frustrating moments in Scouting with Faith issues

1) When in one of my early Scouter training classes the trainer made a point that we were not to write God's name on anything due to offense that may be taken by some religion (maybe Judism?) so all of our songs in the song book were like this "Go_"

 

2) Same trainer (several years later at Wood Badge) made same case but much broader application.. Christian Scouters seemed to be pushed out of allowing to share our faith and yet accomodate an almost non-existent group of 'who knows what"..

 

3) At Cub Resident Day Camp, some 'psychadelic' female camp counselor reads a Dr. Seuss story (long and boring one too) as the prime content for the Sunday morning "worship service".

 

4) At same Woodbadge session, I walk over to another Patrol site looking for a fellow Catholic that I heard wants to attend Mass together at a Parish down the road from camp. I meet her and we strike up a conversation. One of her Patrol immediately butts in and begins to shed his ignorance all over us and denigrate Catholics in several very nasty ways including talking in a most vulgar manner about his ex-wife - who was also Catholic.. This guy was in Woodbadge?? Help ! Who screens these people?

 

 

Proud Moment In faith in Scouting

(I could only think of one so I had to change this from plural)

1) At training session similar to 1 (OLS maybe) a group of various scouters takes offense to the "Go_" thing and other items and politely / respectfully challenges the trainer with lots of questions and situations and such...Trainer is made very aware that the importance of our Faith and relationships with God outweighs all else (Scouting too).. Maybe helped the trainer understand something...

2) ???????????????????????I'm trying

[Hiromi]

Hello Brothers and Sisters in Scouting,

 

It all goes to the deeper question of why do we do anything anyways? If it is the pleasure principle then we are no better than animals (tough-turkey you dog lovers they aint people I dont care how they look at you).

 

Man is either a noble creature made in the Divine image and thus capable of striving towards Christian perfection, or he is just another animal pretending to be better than his zoo-mates. To the believers- it truly is - either or.

 

The interiority of a developed spiritual life gives man his real strength to stand up against a whole world if needs be. I am not refering to the zealous fanatic. I am referring to the self-less man who would gladly give his life for friend or enemy.

 

As I have stated in previous posts, the pedigree of the Scout Law goes back to Christian Culture and Scripture. I.E. The Beatitudes and the Christian Virtues.

 

If we look at the Christian virtues and the Beatitudes we do in fact see a programme of conduct that offers no tangible worldly rewards. The reward for each Beatitude is a blessing from God. We want to be preferred by God, and in His revealed truth we have been shown the way towards that divine perfection- (impossible as that standard of conduct might be). .

 

The Scout Law is a good start for boys on their road to the most important journey of their life. The reward for following the scout law is Honor. The only witness needed- Your Maker.

 

 

The Beatitudes from The Sermon on The Mount

 

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

Blessed are they who mourn,

for they shall be comforted.

 

Blessed are the meek,

for they shall inherit the earth.

 

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

for they shall be satisfied.

 

Blessed are the merciful,

for they shall obtain mercy.

 

Blessed are the pure of heart,

for they shall see God.

 

Blessed are the peacemakers,

for they shall be called children of God.

 

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

 

Gospel of Matthew 5:3-10

 

THE CHRISTIAN VIRTUES:

 

Chastity (Latin, Castitas) (purity, opposes Lust, Latin Luxuria)

Embracing of moral wholesomeness and achieving purity of body and thought through education and betterment.

 

Temperance (Latin, Temperare) (self-control, opposes Gluttony, Latin Gula) Practicing self-control, abstention, and moderation.

 

Charity (Latin, Liberalitas) (will, generosity, opposes Greed, Latin Avaritia) Generosity. Willingness to give. A nobility of thought or actions.

 

Diligence (Latin, Industria) (ethics, opposes Sloth, Latin Acedia)

A zealous and careful nature in one's actions and work. Decisive work ethic. Budgeting one's time; monitoring one's own activities to guard against laziness.

 

Patience (Latin, Patientia) (peace, opposes Wrath, Latin Ira)

Forbearance and endurance through moderation. Resolving conflicts peacefully, as opposed to resorting to violence. The ability to forgive; to show mercy to sinners.

 

Kindness (Latin, Humanitas) (satisfaction, opposes Envy, Latin Invidia) Charity, compassion, friendship, and sympathy without prejudice and for its own sake.

 

Humility (Latin, Humilitas) (modesty, opposes Pride, Latin Superbia)

Modest behavior, selflessness, and the giving of respect. Giving credit where credit is due; not unfairly glorifying one's own self.

 

 

Sin Virtue Importance

Pride (vanity) ------------------Humility (modesty) Most

Envy (jealousy) -----------------Kindness (admiration)

Wrath (anger) -------------------Forgiveness (composure)

Sloth (laziness/idleness)--------Diligence (zeal/integrity/Labor)

Greed (avarice)----------- ------Charity (giving)

Gluttony (over-indulgence)-------Temperance (self-restraint)

Lust(excessive sexual appetites) Chastity (purity) Least

 

 

The Beatitudes and the Christian virtues are an amazing guide for us as mentors and role models. Whether you are a Christian Believer or an Agnostic, the sensibleness and power of these virtues and spiritual guideposts are enigmatic and deep and completely relevant to our mandate as Scouters.

 

We see boys all the time that exhibit the vices, wouldn't it be helpful to identify them by name to the scout and educate them to the virtue which is its opposite?

 

 

Pappy

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[Gold Winger]

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

 

Greed is right.

 

Greed works.

 

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

 

Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

[Hiromi]

Hey Gold Winger,

 

You quote one of the most un-boy-scout-like fictional characters of all time to make your case? OR were you just being ironic?

 

Here is a little more (courtesy of Wikipedia) about the character you would have us beleive should be our spirit guide?

 

"Gordon Gekko is a fictional character from the 1987 film Wall Street. Gekko was portrayed by actor-producer Michael Douglas, in a performance that won him an Oscar for Best Actor. In the film, nave stock broker Bud Fox, played by Charlie Sheen, comes to work for the ultra-aggressive, power-hungry Gekko. Fox is loosely based on the executive assistant Jackson McIntosh. He is also slated to return in the as-yet embryonic film Money Never Sleeps.

 

Gekko is based loosely on arbitrageur Ivan Boesky who gave a speech on greed at the University of California, Berkeley in 1986, real-life activist investor / corporate raider Carl Icahn, and aspiring British property magnate Bobby Blore of Shamley Green fame. In 2002 Gordon Gekko was named one of the Fifteen Richest Fictional Characters according to Forbes who attributed him with 650 million dollars. In 2003, the AFI named him number 24 of the top 50 movie villains of all time.

 

Parallels can also be drawn with Michael Milken, the so-called Junk Bond King of the 1980s who traded high-yield bonds for Drexel Burnham Lambert. Like Gekko, Milken was regarded as an outsider and a quixotic obsessive genius who made gutsy investment decisions. During his time at DBL, Milken became engaged in a number of market abuses and traded on inside information gleaned from his junk bond underwriting. He also engaged in stock parking and manipulated the market to such an extent that regulators were misled. Comparable to Gekko, Milken was eventually indicted for his malpractices and in 1989 was charged with 98 counts of racketeering and fraud which resulted in a sentence of 10 years imprisonment (for which he served 2)."

 

Maybe we should have a merit badge in racketeering.

 

Pappy

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[CalicoPenn]

There seems to me to be a corallary question here as well - I think of it as the elephant in the room everyone hopes doesn't make itself known (and here I am about to prod the elephant).

 

If faith disappeared from the Boy Scouts, would people (other than those in units that are truly meshed in with their faiths - Pappy's for instance) really notice a big difference? I'd argue that the most meaningless words in the Scout Oath and the Scout Law are "Duty to God" and "Reverent". Not that they don't have meaning, but that the majority of Scouts and Scouters just repeat the words because its tradition and in the Oath and Law without ever giving any real thought to them. I'd argue that although the BSA considers itself to be Non-sectarian and not Secular, the majority of Parents, Scouts and Scouters view Scouting through a secular lens - in effect making Scouting secular.

 

How much of the fear that the BSA would lose units if they announced they were secular has anything to do with Faith and how much of the fear has to do with loss of membership/funds?

 

I believe that Scouting is for the most part Non-sectarian in word and Secular in action for the majority of Units.

 

If choosing to respond, I ask that everyone look beyond their own unit - to take a more global look. My thoughts on this come not from my experience with the units I have been involved with but with my experience in working with many different units over the years at the district, council and national level.

 

Calico

[Hiromi]

Calico,

The Scout law is not written to affirm the status quos but to serve as a guide and a corrective. Four million Frenchman CAN be wrong (and often are). American is increasingly becoming secular. This is a problem. Scouting, following that lead, would lower itself once again. Look to the Canadian Scouting program. Do you want a transgender scouting as well?

 

That seems to be the trend.

 

Pappy

 

[Lisabob]

This is a fantastic side discussion (and one we've had on occasion in the past too) but I would respectfully ask that a discussion of whether or not the BSA should make the changes mentioned by either Calico or Pappy (in his previous post) be spun off into a separate thread and placed in the Issues & Politics forum, as they are bound to end up there eventually anyway.