How much should Faith inform Scouting?

[Beavah]

Pappy asked for this topic, eh? And it seems worthy. I reckon most of us volunteer for units that have a mostly secular, multi-faith style and membership. Those folks will possibly need to be patient with folks like Pappy who represent a religious CO that draws boys mostly from its own membership. The exchange of ideas might be interestin' and informative for everyone though, eh?

 

B

 

[scoutingagain]

I think the answer to this is relatively straight forward. As much as the CO chooses.

 

I recognize Pappy's CO has a lot of involvement with his unit and chooses or allows to have his Catholic Christian faith be a significant influence in the unit they sponsor. Good for them.

 

I suspect if Pappy or other leaders tried to exercise the same Christian or Jewish influence on the Troop up the street sponsored by a Mosque it would be suggested they find a more appropiate unit to work with. I suspect a Christian or Jewish unit would do the same if a Moslem cleric wanted to volunteer to lead their unit to teach the boys about Allah and the Koran.

 

As for the unit I serve, sponsored by a Methodist Church, it is pretty secular. Boys of all faiths are welcome although ironically most are Catholic, none are Methodist. There is little if any Christian religious influence in the unit. Other than recognizing the Great Master of all Scouts occasionally there is little religious influence at all. That is left to the boy's families and individual houses of worship.

 

And I think all of the above are just fine.

 

SA

[Hiromi]

Beavah,

 

Thanks for considering this worthy of a thread.

 

I think that the best rationale for considering this subject worthy of discussion is that we have formally ensconced in our scouting tradition an Oath based on Honor that we will do our Duty to God, and that we will uphold our mandate to Be Reverent.

 

While we can emphasize some aspects of scouting and deemphasize others, I would think that some would like to just suppose some aspects of the Scout Law and Oath would just disappear or at least be left to the parents.

 

The question is: Reverence to what? How should this reverence be manifested? How does reverence inform a childs and scoutmasters conduct?

 

What is Duty to God? Why should there be a Duty to God. By what authority do we make such oath?

 

What is Honor? How does honor inform our scouting practice. Is Honor and Reverence to a maker consistent? Does duty to maker mean that we must be informed by our particular Faiths creeds and Dogmas?

 

This subject is indeed very ripe.

 

I personally think that scouting, having co-evolved with the American public school system (and its rather insidious form of secularism) has become weakened and insecure about its ultimate aims and mission.

 

Five days a week, 9 months a year, for about 50 years now, the children in Public School have had virtually no talk of God, even in the most watered down sense. This has formed a kind of status quos in our culture that views the Christian Witness, for instance, as a strange pariah - Even though our Judeo-Christian faith was basically the chronicles of the same types of Men and Women.

 

Assuming that the discussion of Heroism is still seen of some value to scouting (though some forum members have stated that BSA clearly doesnt hold up heroism as part of its program), then from this I would continue the line of thinking- What is a Hero? Or for that matter- what is Noble and best in manly conduct?

 

If the idea of Hero becomes completely cleaned of Bible Heroism- Then what have we done to Heroism and to the Model of the Perfect Man?

 

If the Idea of Hero becomes completely cleaned of Military Heroes (As the schools have now been doing for some forty years) Then what are we to speak of when we discuss duty to country- union organizers and peace protesters?

 

What is the new hero of our time- since as one forum member pointed out- we should stickl to our time and not look to by-gone eras with their by-gone ways.?

 

Besides Martin Luther King and Al Gore, it seems like the popular imagination now has become pretty hungry for a model that the Public Schools purged long ago.

 

We speak of self- SacrificeService before Self, Duty, Courteousness, and the like. But we want to keep things religious on the down low.

 

So by what authority do we teach the boys these things? Because they are right- Who says so?

Because they are good? According to whom?

 

If we truly dont believe that God Said so then why should the boys believe what Weve got to say about it?

 

It comes down to ultimate authority. It has always been the case. IT is not good enough that Moses wrote laws on a tablet- God Did.

 

Jesus didnt say he was a philosopher or a Talmudic commentator or even a prophet He said that He was sent to us from His Father in Heaven.

 

So are we to take this and then, when we are charged with the formation of boys say- well that may be all well and nice- but we dont want to offend anybody. Wow now thats a gutsy position. How inspiring.

 

Im a Catholic. So I am raised in a Church that tells me that the highest model of Manhood is also an impossible model- that being Jesus Christ. And I have been shown a long tradition of Men and Women who have strove to meet that Model. Mostly they met with very violent demises. They were rarely popular. Even less seldom were they successful by worldly standards. They were alone with God. This solitariness of the Faithful is what I think of when I think of Honor being the highest commodity there is. It is you and God and the condition of your Honor. Only God knows how good you are. Only God needs witness your good deeds for you to receive your reward. Honor is the belief that the most valuable thing in a life is intangible and only the business of you and your creator.

 

So if the heroes of the Bible, The heroes of the Church and the Faith are not to be brought into the discussion of Male Formation in scouting, then we have, I believe, cut ourselves off from a very important stream indeed.

 

What informed Martin Luther Kings vision? What were the language and symbols he invoked? Could you imagine if he had not allowed his faith to inform his thoughts and actions?

 

It comes down to the brass tacks of by whose authority? Are we relativists? Are we a club for boys with a little do-gooderism in there to justify playing in the woods? Or are we a movement born out of the progressive era that has those strong 19th and 20th century idealism that says that progress must be guided by conserving the best our culture has been given. The Modern must be informed by the ancient- other-wise it is with hubris and arrogance that we move forward and our charity becomes nothing but vanity.

 

I was a public school teacher. I have seen the bizarre lengths educators go to follow the fashion of what is new and best and progressive. Scouting cannot follow the lead of Public Education. It must go back always to its Oath and Law to find its bearings, and it should go into the woods to teach boys how to be civilization builders not by leaving no trace (good God, what a damaging concept this has turned into!) - But rather by embracing Gods mandate to be stewards of the land, and master of the fish and the birds. Boy Scouts should be taught to see in a forest the potential to build from her trees, to plant from her soil, to mine for her ore, and cut from her stones to build cities and monuments and machines.

 

The public schools are doing everything they can to emasculate boys, and this has slowly crept into the scouting movement.

 

The bible is chalked full of men and woman who chop off heads, build temples and arks, and lay down their lives for Glory to their creator. We need to use our faith as our best resource for building boys into men because the best models for manhood are found in their pages.

 

I would not argue that Scouting is or should be theocratic But it should encourage the active discussion of Faith and how it informs the Scout Oath and Scout Law and the proper mode of Manly Conduct.

 

Well I have made enough of you angry to keep this thread alive for awhile. Have at it!

 

 

With Love,

Pappy

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Background points:

 

I am overtly Christian; I am laity of a conservative lutheran persuasion.

 

Through an area church, I help counsel the protestant God and Country program sponsored in our District.

 

Our district also has an Ad Altare Dei program for Roman Catholic youth.

 

My in-unit work is with Troops and Crews chartered by community service organizations, not churches, at this time.

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In my two things to change thread, my item "right below the line" was add "Earn the religious award for your faith and age" to the Requirements for Eagle Scout.

 

As I understand the Grand Game, faith is a family matter. That's irrespective of whether we're talking B-P a century ago, or BSA now. Our task is to promote faith in general, not evangelize or prosletyze.

 

Churches which charter Scouting are, of course, free to say to parents: "We support duty to God, expect it to come from the ZZZ context." Parents are then free to make a decision about the program, unit and family fit.

 

The Bible is a good source of Scoutmaster Minute material. Other good sources include the Bhagavad-Gita and the Koran. What's used and how depends to me on the makeup of the unit and the point the SM is trying to make.

 

I am against "mix and match" worship (Christian hymn linked to Koran verse to Jewish prayer). I've heard a Philmont staff chaplain call that anathema.

 

I said above I counsel God and Country... specifically God and Chruch (6-8 grades, roughly Confirmation years). When I'm counseling, I will not hide the message of the Christus. The child is there at his or the parent's request, the task He sets before me is to share the Good News.

 

When I'm in a unit, though, I will help a young person find resources for their own faith. If he's unchurched, I will help him find another Scout who attends, and encourage him to try worship.

 

Go with God!

[Venividi]

Pappy,

 

Love accepted. You certainly did open up lots of options for different directions to take this topic. I do hope that this thread stays on topic of faith in scouting, and does not take the path of discussing faith in public schools, which would be a better topic for a separate thread in the politics forum.

 

The troop that I had served was sponsored by a church that viewed scouting as one of their outreach services to the community. Typically, there were several (2 to 5) members of the church in the troop. Most were from outside of the troop, including many non-churched. Our CO did not require nor promote any particular amount of faith information to include in the troop. They were very hands off; typically an annual report to the CO, staffing services on scout Sunday, and helping with their annual garage sale.

While I was SM, I did lay out the expectation to the Chaplaine's Aide that I expected him to lead a short service on every campout. Mostly this consisted of a non-denominational service taken directly from the program planning guide. Occasionally, a Chaplaine's Aide created his own, which reflected his denominations teachings and traditions. I was pleased whenever I had a scout with that amount of initiative.

 

One idea that I tried to persuade the PLC to try was to host the church's youth group on a weekend campout. I thought that this would be a good opportunity to share their skills with frindly, non-scouting peers, develop some synergy between the groups, and be an opportunity to provide service to the CO in a fun manner.

[Trevorum]

OK, Beav, I'll be patient.

 

I'm genuinely baffled as to what you mean by "inform Scouting". That has the sound of meaning, but is elusively slippery. Can you rephrase that question?

[Beavah]

Yah, Trev, it ain't my question, eh? That was Pappy's question.

 

I'm just the dreaded Thread Spinster.

 

B

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Beavah?

 

Spinster?

 

That has a denotation my friend. Are you stating you are not of the male gender?

[Hiromi]

Trevorum wrote:

"OK, Beav, I'll be patient.

 

I'm genuinely baffled as to what you mean by "inform Scouting". That has the sound of meaning, but is elusively slippery. Can you rephrase that question?""

 

Defintion Number 3 is the "Inform" I meant. But in a srtange way all the differnt senses of the word inform are intersting. How does Religion inform Scouitng?

 

To Inform:

 

1. to give or impart knowledge of a fact or circumstance to: He informed them of his arrival.

2. to supply (oneself) with knowledge of a matter or subject: She informed herself of all the pertinent facts.

3. to give evident substance, character, or distinction to; pervade or permeate with manifest effect: A love of nature informed his writing.

4. to animate or inspire.

5. Obsolete. a. to train or instruct.

b. to make known; disclose.

c. to give or impart form to.

 

verb (used without object) 6. to give information; supply knowledge or enlightenment: a magazine that entertains more than it informs.

 

I used the word inform so we could look at GOd and Reverence in our scouts oath and law as something as an asction, and the verb inform seemed to do the trick.

 

I'm genuinely baffled as to how scouting can be secular. I think to secularize scouting would be like chopping off our best rationale for the movement along with our source of greatest authority- we have a supernatural mandate to form boys into men who are reverent to there maker.

 

Does this clear things up for you Trevorum?

 

Thanks for you patience.

 

Pappy

 

 

[Gold Winger]

All I know is that I get in trouble every time that we're camping and I catch a squirrel then try to sacrifice it and make a burned offering. :-(

[Bob White]

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His

laws. So every Scout should have a religion....Religion seems

a very simple thing: First: Love and serve God. Second: Love

and serve your neighbour." (Baden- Powell, Scouting for Boys)

 

It should be noted that Baden-Powell in his day was not much liked by the Catholic Church, and was critized more than once for his opinion that no one religion holds all the right answers as to who and what God is. While he considered himself Christian, he felt that nature was the best church and that rather than being taught a belief in God it was better for one to discover a belief in God.

 

Probably the best way for a scout leader to promote a Scout's "Duty to God" and being "Reverent", is by personal example and how they live the values of their own faith each day.

 

[SSScout]

My home Troop is sponsored by a Methodist Church. We have at least six different faiths represented therein. Our Chaplains Aide last year was from a Jewish family. He didn't come to Scout Sunday at the Methodist church, but he did some Chaplainy things thru the year. Our latest new member is Hindu. The only concern so far is how to respect the familly's dietary concerns on camp trips. (purely vegetarian. Wouldn't hurt any of us).

 

It is a learning experience.

 

I am Commishing a new Troop and Pack sponsored by an Islamic organization (not yet a full fledged mosque. A real learning experience).

 

I am sometimes reminded of "Home Improvement", the tv show where Tim Allen (Taylor) lives next door to Wilson, whom we never see except across the top of his fence. The fence defines the two neighbors areas but the top allows conversation and enlightenment. Mostly Tim is enlightened, but it does go both ways. If the fence was any taller, there would be no conversation. If it was too low, there would be little differentiation and mebbe not as much curiosity.

 

We make our fences too tall to our own detriment.

 

[Hiromi]

Pappy

 

"Probably the best way for a scout leader to promote a Scout's "Duty to God" and being "Reverent", is by personal example and how they live the values of their own faith each day."----Bob WHite

 

I find myself partially agreeing with Bob White here. But this is an open-ended idea- isnt it. While I didnt agree with your other sentiments pertaining to discovering belief as opposed to being taught belief.

 

(Catechesis is central for most faiths because if you dont learn the Sacred texts and the traditions of your faith and discuss them with others and with teachers then your formation is extremely in doubt and your spiritual life is just a crap shoot).

 

If you meant by belief actually having faith in God- then of course- this is an act of free will no mater how much one is trained.

 

I could anticipate a number of reasons why BP may have had run-ins with the Catholic Church. Camping on Sunday is an issue that we had to address early on in the formation of our troop becasue of our Sunday Obligatio to attend Mass. Our Solution: Go to Mass as a troop in uniform on all weekend over-nighters.

 

Being a personal example of how one lives the values of his or her own faith each day as being the best way for a scout leader to promote a scout's duty to God and being reverent can indeed be done without raising walls as another Forum Member hinted at.

 

I think there is a big difference between proselytizing and just being an open and unapologetic man of your faith in the presence of all.

 

What I was getting at was that our scouting movement is very serious business, as Im sure all of you would agree to in various degrees. I think it is serious because many of our Faith Traditions indicate that formation of others is a terrific responsibility.

 

Gods Grandeur can indeed be found in the forest. And we are not mandated by BSA nor should we be to speak in theological terms that would close out others. But lets not let our fear of putting off others ever detract from emulating the behavior our faith encourages. This includes looking to our faith to find the deeper and perhaps best reasons for why the Scout Law and Oath are important and how fromthem flows the authority and wisdom to enlighten us on how we should proceed in answering ethical and moral situations that may arise during our Scouter tenure.

 

And lastly- if we want to communicate to others scoutings intrinsic values- bringing up the idea that scouting helps to get a boy to think outside of himself and about others and about his place and duties in this world is a very big selling point- I dont care if you are Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Jew, or a squirrel-burning pagan like Gold Winger.

 

Pappy

 

[Trevorum]

OK. So if I may then be permitted to rephrase the original question using Pappy's guidance, it comes out thusly: "How much should faith pervade and permeate Scouting?"

 

In my mind the answer is clear: to the extent that the Chartering Organization wishes (and within the "strictly non-sectarian" limitations imposed by National policy). In Pappy's 100% Catholic unit, religion is likely much more pervasive than in my unit with 4 or 5 major world religions being represented. Pappy's approach would no more work in my troop than vice versa.

 

So that's a non-issue. I do disagree with his argument that faith must be based on childhood indoctrination of dogma. I believe that each person must be free to experience their own spiritual journey. I don't consider this to be a "crap shoot", but if the expected result of the journey is pre-determined (ie, the parents' religion), then I can see how the process would be less reliable than childhood indoctrination. But, I've been around this issue before (memorably with Rooster - sigh) and I don't expect to convince Pappy to let his son becaome a Buddhist if that what he wants to do. This disagreement just comes down to different parenting styles.

 

[Lisabob]

Let me take a somewhat different crack at this. My son's troop contains members of several different faiths and while most are some form or other of Christian, we have had (and may currently have?) non-Christian scouts and leaders too. Many of our families are not affiliated with any church at all. Our CO is a service organization with no religious affiliation of any sort. So our troop doesn't display much in the way of religious content. We have a chaplain's aide who takes prayer requests and leads us in the scout benediction at the end of meetings but that's as far as it goes. I've never seen nor heard of our troop doing a scout's own (or whatever it is officially called) type of service in the 3 years my son has been a member. I cannot recall any scouts earning the religious award of their faith since we've joined the troop either. In all of this, I think the troop is fairly representative of many troops "out there," who view religion as primarily something to be dealt with in the family context.

 

That said. I have sat on BORs where reverence was a topic of discussion (often I find scouts - even those whose families are active in a specific church/mosque/temple/etc. - do not know what "reverent" means, let alone how it applies to their lives either in or out of scouting). I've attended plenty of scout events and ceremonies at various local churches. My son did earn a religious award as a webelos scout, not because it was required (or even typical) for scouts in the pack but rather because the structural opportunity was simply there for those who were so inclined. And in the dark of night in our car on the way home from various scouting events over the years, I've had the most amazing and sometimes even profound conversations with my son about why people pray, different practices and forms of worship/belief, the nature of our creator, whether or not "hell" is real, and a host of other religious topics. These often spring from some comment or action that happened at a scout meeting or camp out, and usually he starts these conversations, not me.

 

So does faith inform scouting for us? Sure, absolutely, even in units like ours where it is seldom an explicit component of the program and is instead left to each family to grapple with. And I'm grateful to the BSA for providing openings to have these sorts of discussions, all without shoving religion down anyone's throat as a programmatic mandate.