Rogue Units and District/Council Service

[Beavah]

 

Moved this from da Namby thread because it seemed like an interesting topic. I personally believe that people tend to identify "rogue units" primarily in districts and councils that aren't doin' a good job with service. Here was my posting, and OGE indicated he would clarify his position.

 

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Let me see if I've got all the signs of a rogue unit by your definition:

 

They have had poor experiences with commissioners.

They don't use the council summer camp but instead go out of council.

They don't sell popcorn.

They don't attend camporees.

When asked, they complain about the quality of council service.

 

And for some reason, that seems to really get da goat of some folks.

 

I dunno. I guess I'm more relaxed about this sort of thing. That could describe the best troop in a district or the worst.

 

What it does probably describe is a district or council with weak programmin', though... and perhaps a real "bad apple" or two in the past that really ticked somebody off. Just like we tell troops - to engage and keep kids, provide good program. Same for districts and councils that want to engage and keep units. It's all about the quality of program and buildin' relationships.

 

And yeh gotta be careful about ticking off a customer. Relationships take a while to build, but they can be destroyed overnight. People remember when they've been treated poorly for a long time.

 

I don't particularly get in a lather about a troop that isn't really usin' council resources much, and therefore doesn't feel like payin' for council resources it's not using. Fair enough. We get their numbers on da books at least. And we know we've got an area where we should be tryin' to do a better job of service.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Before I start saying things like, "Hey, dont put words in my mouth" (geez, I just had a weird feeling of Deja Vu, like I all of this has happened before... Anyhow, this is what I first posted:

See Beavah, that is what is so great about this forum, learn things from all over, my District has a few rogue units as well. Most of them run off any commissioner assigned to them because they dont want any District spy knowing what they do, then the complain District never helps them out when they need help. They are the type of troop that hasnt been to a council camp in 10 years because the COuncil camp sucks, and maybe it did 10 years ago, and 5 camp directors and 7 program directors ago, but I digress. They dont sell popcorn and then say the reason they dont support council is because the facilities are old, the office equipment antiquated and the office doesnt have enough personnel. The rogue units dont come to Camporees because they suck and arent challeging enough for their boys and have never hosted a Camporee becaue they dont have time.

So, its interesting to see how rogue units are defined from one area of the country to another

Beavah made his assessment and you see it as the initial post.

Now I have my translation:

Let me try this again, but with my translation

"Most of them run off any commissioner assigned to them because they dont want any District spy knowing what they do, then the complain District never helps them out when they need help."

See, I think Commissioners are there to help the unit, in whatever way they can. If a troop doesnt want anything to do with a commissioner, it may very well be due to a bad experience, but if a unit wont communicate with its most direct pipeline to the District, its hard for the District to know when that unit needs help. That is all I meant

"They are the type of troop that hasnt been to a council camp in 10 years because the COuncil camp sucks, and maybe it did 10 years ago, and 5 camp directors and 7 program directors ago, but I digress."

Camps have to make sure they make a great first impression, because they can only do it once. And maybe 10 years ago the camp was run poorly, but to not consider it 10 years later because of an experience 10 years ago is not logical. Leastwise I dont think so.

"They dont sell popcorn and then say the reason they dont support council is because the facilities are old, the office equipment antiquated and the office doesnt have enough personnel."

SInce Council makes some money from popcorn, I thought it obvious if people dont sell popcorn, they are not supporting the COuncil in fiducial matters. Now, if you didnt get that I apologize for being obtuse, normally I eschew obsfuscation but I guess I didnt in this case.

 "The rogue units dont come to Camporees because they suck and arent challeging enough for their boys and have never hosted a Camporee becaue they dont have time."

 They dont come to camporees because they dont like the way the camporees are set up but do not tell anyone what they would like to see nor do they volunteer to present a camporee according to the style they would like

BTW, give me credit for saying they were rogue, not gangs of kids wearing boy scout uniforms or they were units not following the program

[John-in-KC]

Beavah,

 

By that definition my former Troop came close to being Rogue...

 

1) The Invisible Commissioner: The youth did a lot of communication within the Troop, but the SM and CC sent a lot of Scouter/parental stuff by email. As Advancement Coordinator on the Committee, I didn't kill trees unless I had to. It's really easy to take a text file out of Troopmaster and drop in on a word processor. Then I could email it to SM as needed.

 

Anyway, UC was regularly upset we didn't have a newsletter (we did, it was online). Told us he wouldn't do internet. More than once we were offsite at an activity when he'd try to do unit call.

 

Then... he had his shift rotated so he couldn't visit evenings at all.

 

Then... he was relocated, and the ADC said "I don't have anyone for you."

 

3) No popcorn. Seen the profit factors from popcorn? Seen the unit density in my 25 sq mi (5 x 5) corner of Kansas City? Popcorn wasn't worth the time to try to sell, especially by youth in their neighborhoods. Christmas wreaths and chili suppers did far, far better.

 

District Chair to IH: Why don't your units sell Popcorn?

IH (who is a sales guy by trade): Going to give me an exclusive sales area around my population base?

Dist. Chair: I can't do that.

IH: I won't have my units sell popcorn.

 

5) Kid comes up for Eagle. Get an email from the Professional who advises the Advancement Committee: Why didn't he list ZZZ MB on his app? (msg forwarded from Registrar to Professional)

 

My email back: He never earned it.

His email back: It shows on ScoutNet, this date.

My email back, AFTER checking advancement report: He earned YYY MB on that date (10 key error, this was before internet advancement).

- Also: On "this date", I got an annual download of advancement status from the Registrar.

On "this date +3" I submitted an amended advancement report, asking the Registrar to withdraw the MB listing... the boy never earned it.

His email back: Oh. That's all, oh.

 

I recognize BSA is "sales on salary". I recognize many local Councils rely heavily on fundraising to pay everyone (I'm doing Family FOS pitches tonight and tomorrow).

 

IMO, Councils which claim "rogue units" need to look at themselves and ask for Feedback... it's a gift, after all.

[SMEagle819]

You can consider my unit a rogue unit (many in our district do, I know that for a fact). We have been called anything from a "high adventure unit" (goes camping once a month, year round, follows the old scout ideals of "Keep the Outing in Scouting"), to "you guys don't support council" (sold popcorn for the past 6 years, did not do this past year; however, we attend summer camp at the council's camp every year). We have begun attending district and council camporees again; the info is presented to the PLC, who then decides if they would like to attend. Our district only has one camporee per year now. I remember when I was a scout, that there was a spring and fall camporee. Also, there used to be a Scout-a-Rama every spring put on by the council, but that has also fallen by the wayside. I have offered my services to the camping committee, but have received no response.

 

Regarding UCs, we had them in the past that were assigned by the district. We were lucky to ever see these people, let alone know who was our UC. When they would stop by, they would tell us we should be doing this, and we should be doing that. We stopped seeing these people after my predecessor lost his cool at one who was trying to tell him how to be a Sm (after this gentleman had served over 25 years as SM). We now have the old CM from our same numbered pack (will stop using the term feeder pack as suggested) as our UC. We know who this person is, and how to contact them. Much better relations now with UC than in the past.

 

I have to agree with what OGE said about the product the council/district is providing their customers. In my opinion, our district really is floundering in my area. We did just get split into 2 new districts,as the original one was extremenly large by national standards (so we were told). At one time there were 2 viable troops in my little town. Now, due to pressures of the council/district maintaining its "Honor Council/District," there are now 4 troops in the same village fighting for boys to join their troop. I have asked everyone from the UC (past and present) on up the chain to the SE, and have never been given a reason why there is an over saturation of Boy Scout troops in my area. Many of the parents are also confused/frustrated by the "politics" in our council/district. I have to keep reminding the parents that we are here for the boys, not for council/district and whatever problems they are having.

 

Sorry for the rant. This thread kind of hit home...

[FireKat]

SMEagle819 wrote: "At one time there were 2 viable troops in my little town. Now, due to pressures of the council/district maintaining its "Honor Council/District," there are now 4 troops in the same village fighting for boys to join their troop. I have asked everyone from the UC (past and present) on up the chain to the SE, and have never been given a reason why there is an over saturation of Boy Scout troops in my area."

That seems to be the same thing that has been happening around here. New packs and troops form but disappear almost as fast.  The older ones struggle to get scouts but those that tried the 'new' ones now have a bad taste in their mouths about scouting.  We cannot get them to even check us out much less join.  Why is it that it seems like the council will not tell callers about the older troops and packs any more?  One parent that was really interested in scouting found us and asked me that question.  When she called for troops/packs she was only told about the new ones which had already folded.  I had no answer.  Maybe someone can tell me how to answer if this question comes up again.

[Eamonn]

Could be that things are a little different in each and every District.

Off the top of my head, -I can't think of any real "Rogue Units" in the District I serve.

Sure we have a few people who don't seem happy unless they are having a moan and a groan.

We have Troops that seem to have made Advancement and the Eagle Scout count their main goal.

The District /Council has come to accept that Cub Scouts are the big pop-corn sellers and looks on Troops and Venturing units selling it as some kind of bonus.

We do have SM's who tell new Scouts that they don't need to worry about the full uniform as their Troop doesn't wear it.

We have one Troop that does a first rate job of recruiting. Each and every year it seems to recruit about ten new Scouts, but each and every year come rechartering time it recharters with five or six. SM, is a super nice guy! WB Trained, one of the biggest and best patch collections in PA, I'm sure that he'd make a great ASM.

We did have one unit that was trying to mix the BSA program with a Campfire program?? Never did work out how they went about it? Couldn't have worked very well -They folded. Kinda funny on the way into our small town Penn-Dot has a marker for the unit for keeping the area clean it reads 130 Campfire Scouts!!

We are a small District, people in our area don't move a lot, the leaders have been around for a very long time, we tend to all know each other.

Unless there is food at a R/T meeting attendance can at times be a little spotty!!

Just about every Troop goes to the Council Summer Camp, same week, same site! I wish at times they would ask the Scouts where they want to go? But deep down I know it's never going to happen with the leaders we have now.

There is one Troop in the Council who wears camo pants. They have a wonderful program, they claim they have permission from a SE to wear these pants. No one seems to know which SE gave the permission. I talked with the past two SE's and they claim they were never asked!!

Sadly we don't have enough Commissioners, so no one has to avoid them, in fact as things are now seeing a live one is a notable occasion.

Maybe being a Rogue Unit is too much like hard work for our guys? Maybe things have been as they are for so long that everyone just accepts that things are as they are?

Could it be that there is a little bit of a "Rogue" in all of us? But when it comes to "Pushing it" we know when to say when?

Ea.

[Hunt]

My son's unit has some of these "rogue" characteristics. They stem, at least in part, from a conflict that occurred a number of years ago. In fact, there are no longer any boys in the troop who were there at the time, and only a few adults--but the hard feelings remain. (But things have improved somewhat, as the cast of characters at district and council have also changed.)

I think that some of the "rogue" characteristics (like going to an out of council camp and relying on fundraisers other than popcorn) can become entrenched as a troop tradition. For example, my son's troop has been going to the same out-of-council camp ever since he has been in the troop (and long before), and nobody wants to change. Similarly, the troop has been doing the same (very successful) fundraiser for years and years, and it would make little sense to drop it and switch to popcorn sales.

[mk9750]

I wonder whether our Troop would be considered "rogue".

 

"have had poor experiences with commissioners." - Well, we've had three or four UC's assigned to us over the last 13 years. One time one of them came to a Court of Honor (they get invitations to ALL of our CoHs and such). He showed up in a rumpled up uniform shirt and jeans. He looked sheepish when he saw all of our guys in full uniforms. We haven't seen a UC since. Once in a while we get a ADC to an Eagle CoH.

 

"They don't use the council summer camp but instead go out of council." - In 1991, before I was with the Troop, we went to the Council summer camp (had gone every other year since our inception in 1958). Program was horible, as I hear the story told, swimming and riflery areas were actually dangerous, and the milk was chunky. We found a different summer camp (In Eamonn's and Ed's Council, I think), and have gone there every other year since. It's not that we wouldn't go back to our home council's camp. But we like where we are at.

 

"They don't sell popcorn." - We were the 2nd highest Troop, and 5th highest unit in our district. We could do better, I think. But we sell popcorn.

 

"They don't attend camporees." Our Troop started camporees back up after a 4 or 5 year hiatus.

 

"When asked, they complain about the quality of council service." - Like service anywhere else, service from Council is very poor. But that, unfortunately, is the theme of our era, I think. Find me any entity that services well, and I'll show you an entity with almost uniformly happy customers.

 

Are we rogue? From above, maybe we are half rogue.

 

Judging from our reputation? I'd have to say the same thing. We have other Troops who seem to dispise us because we do a lot of high venture stuff, and keep boys until they turn 18. Our SM rubs some folks the wrong way within the district. But all in all, I think we are respected.

 

Mark

 

[Eamonn]

Mark,

The camp belongs to Ed's Council, but is located in the Council I serve.

Have a family that lives almost next door to that camp, but the Troop attends good old Camp Conestoga.

(We may have our faults but chunky milk isn't one of them.)

Ea

[Nessmuk]

Good topic Beavah !!

 

Looking back, I think my troop (as a Scout) was a bit "rogue", but was very "proper" if that makes any sense to you. Our SM, whom I reflect on as an iconic figure of my youth (another thread) I think did not like the District scene very much.. We had a strong boy led program with a regular committee and plenty of ASM's who "knew" Scouting..

 

But I always got the sense that we were a bit of an island.. Council Camp a couple years followed by "our own Summer Camp" (imagine that!) a couple years.. They were both fun in their own ways..

 

Our SM was of the traditional scouting bent and was ex-army but not militaristic. I think now that he did not care for the "money and numbers" end of Scouting along with what was then a developing concept now known as "factory scouting" and "trailer camping".. We had a tight connection to our CO (Legion), and our town, - we used the BSA program and that was enough..

 

We chopped and sold firewood for our major fundraiser. Local timber companies welcomed us thinning the hardwood in the pine forest.. Thinking back what a great fundraiser for Scouts !

 

We camped weekends at the sites we worked .. First time I ever made stew from scratch over a fire (was darned good) The adults ran any power equipment and scouts used hand tools and hauled wood around all day.. I digress ! Sorry.. Well just think - "sell stuff tha Council wants you to sell or play lumberjack for 4 or 5 weekends while camping???

 

Compared to troops today, we must have looked like Pappy's Corps (without the cannons) .

 

When I was Tfoot (or 2nd class) our first SM died of a heart attack. Our next SM was also my Cubmaster, a family friend, and he had a very tight relationship and was very active with Council and the District.. I still have District Old Timers ask me about him.. I remember the changes (not all bad) that came with that leadership switch..

 

When I was SPL, he required me (as part of my job) to come to RoundTable every month with him and take notes and participate.. I was usually the only Scout there and I learned a lot as SPL..

 

We were not as "rogue" after that, but still very special in that we did some things our own way..

 

In our District a few years back (as we re-kindled the Pack) a "consolidated group" in a nearby town was literally busted up by Council for excessive "rogueness". (some CO empowered rednecks and really bad attitudes mixed with the normal wrong stuff and a lot of money and saftey "issues") We had most of their Cubs coming to our town's Pack even before that..

 

Seeing the Council literally break them up (revoke charter etc) was proof to me that you can actually push the edge too far and get yourself kicked out..

 

An idea for a new handbook ! "How to Be a Good Rogue Scout Leader ( but stay out of trouble with the headquarters)..