Not Doing the Scouting Program, and courtesy

[Beavah]

Yah, OK, it's been a while since I raised any online courtesy issue for discussion, eh?

 

But I'm hopin' I can inspire folks to drop a particularly nasty comment that seems to be really common here on scouter.com and not so much anywhere else.

 

The comment I'm referring to is "You're not doing the BSA Scouting Program!" in all of its permutations. Often it's accompanied by implications that the person is dishonorable, and not following one or more tenets of the Scout Oath and Law in his/her daily life.

 

I can't see where directing such a comment at a registered scouter in a BSA-chartered unit is anything other than bein' deliberately rude. The rough equivalent of walkin' up to a guy who does engineering work and saying "Yeah, but you're not a real engineer!" and then implyin' he's being dishonest in his job.

 

Like most rude comments, every time it's raised it either drives someone off da forums or it starts a more-heat-than-light argument.

 

Now I and others have tried to explain da BSA's legal and organizational structure, and how it accommodates a very wide range of different program implementations, and how that's a deliberate organizational choice. I and others have talked about how program materials get written as support documents, not as paint-by-the-numbers must-do guides. And I've participated in a few of those arguments, demonstratin' how even folks who claim to be running the "pure" BSA program are making adjustments or misinterpreting things from time to time. That hasn't seemed to get anywhere besides havin' folks tell me I must be an anarchist and believe that anybody should do anything he wants or some such silliness - as yet another example of da discourtesy these things generate.

 

So I'm gonna ask outright, eh? Can we agree, as a bunch of brother and sister scouters, not to ever again accuse a brother or sister scouter of "not doing the BSA program" in public, especially in a way that implies they are dishonorable or should just quit da organization?

 

I think we'd all be better examples of the Oath and Law we claim to uphold if we did that.

 

None of us are perfect. We can all learn from each others' ideas and examples, and its even fun to debate the merits of different approaches. But not in a way that slams another scouter or scouting program.

 

Your colleague in Scoutin' service,

 

Beavah

 

[LongHaul]

While I think I know where your coming from I have to ask you to define "Scout Program" because I think some who claim to be Scouters are Scouters only in the sense that they paid a fee to National. The program they deliver does not reflect the program described in the training syllabi. So once you have defined "Scout Program" and someone openly declares that they do not follow that definition why is it an insult or derogatory statement to point this out?

LongHaul

[BrentAllen]

Man, it is getting a bit thick in here. Let's see, the pure-as-the-driven-snow Beavah has laid down another decree - so let it be said, so let it be done! And yet, just yesterday, he posted these very words about me:

 

"And sometimes it's downright funny, eh, when the accuser doesn't seem to really understand the BSA program themselves!"

 

I'd say that is, how did you label it, "in all of its permutations". Can you really not see in the mirror, or do you see it and just ignore it?

 

I think I'll go outside for some fresh air.

 

 

[FScouter]

"Can we agree, as a bunch of brother and sister scouters, not to ever again accuse a brother or sister scouter of "not doing the BSA program" in public"

 

No, not really. A person, even if registered, doing whatever he wants, does not equate to the BSA program. As adamantly as some promote a "do yer own thang" philosophy, there will be others (like me) just as adamant that the "BSA program" is fully outlined in the BSA publications, or what you rudely refer to as "paint-by-the-numbers must-do guides".

 

That doesn't mean one must be rude in order to have a differing opinion, but pointing out how a practice is unsafe or outside even a liberal view of "program" isn't being rude. If wild ideas are publicly presented as being "BSA program", it should be perfectly acceptable and accepted to publicly point out they are not.

[Beavah]

Yah, LongHaul, I guess my definition is that they're registered scouters and their units hold a charter. So they've made a choice to affiliate with us and the folks in charge of makin' those choices for da BSA have agreed.

 

I reckon if da National Organization and the local council both agree that a leader and a unit are doin' scouting by keepin' 'em on the roles, then that's that, eh? They are a BSA program. Who are we to say different?

 

Unless Irving has appointed FScouter now as their official Scouting Program Certifier-in-Chief without tellin' da rest of us!

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

Beavah, I can make that pledge, but as they say (who is "they" anyway?) the mirror has two faces. When someone posts what BSA policy is, what the publications say, and how the training sylabbi reads, then there should not be any disparaging comments about the real world and what the books say. If we are all to remain scoutlike, then everyone's opinions and stands are to be respected, even those which aline 100% with BSA literature

 

Edited after Posting:

 

So how Scoutlike is labeling FScouter as the "Inquisitor"? Sauce for the Goose...(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Bob White]

I think we have more than just scouts leaders here. We have parents, and scouts, and new leaders just finding their way. To pretend that anything a unit does is Okey Dokey because they are "brother and sister scouters" is in many ways doing an injustice to them.

 

There are lots of right ways to deliver scouting, and there are a lot of wrong ways being used by "scouters" as well and there are identifiable differences. Since both sides are expressed here there should not be a problem with helping others learn to distinguish between the two.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Lisabob]

I'm with Bob White on this one. There's no call for rudeness but let's not dance around things either. And when the original poster starts off by talking about reforming the BSA and then acknowledges that what they are doing is not the way the BSA lays things out, then I think it is entirely fair to engage in discussion of what the boundaries of BSA scouting are, where those boundaries are located, why they are placed where they are, and what the consequences of choosing to ignore or over-step those boundaries might be.

 

 

[evmori]

Maybe we need to identify the right and wrong ways to deliver Scouting?

 

What do y'all think?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

I would like to admit first, that this unit probably (almost certainly) doesn't get everything right, according to regulations. Some of that is due to leaders and scouts missing the point and some of it is due to a lax district and council. But as long as we 'try' to get it right that should be sufficient.

I know I've learned a lot of things here on these forums and often from people like Bob White, Eamonn, OGE, Beavah, or Brent Allen. We sometimes disagree on things but I think we all 'intend' the same thing for the boys. And understanding we have that in common, we then can go on having fun fussing about 'other' stuff.

 

So I'm sympathetic with the spirit of Beavah's message, even while admitting that he (and I) sometimes miss that mark. To me it's important to keep trying - and learning when possible.

[Gold Winger]

"I reckon if da National Organization and the local council both agree that a leader and a unit are doin' scouting by keepin' 'em on the roles, then that's that, eh? They are a BSA program. Who are we to say different?"

 

Come on, get real Beaver. Unless a unit is doing something like wearing sheets and igniting crosses on the lawns of negros, BSA isn't going to do a danged thing.

 

I know of a Cub Scout pack that ran raffles, sold products without fundraising paperwork, used BSA's name in vain and even did unapproved activities like whitewater rafting. The DE said, "you really shouldn't do that," they continued as before and that was that.

[Its Me]

 

 

Beavah, I would take your oath but I think I read somewhere, or maybe it was at a training event that someone got sued for taking an unofficial Boy Scout pledge and they weren't covered under the insurance.

 

 

Its a liability issue.

 

 

[ASM857]

I will take your pledge

Being new to this forum and trying to work a troop from being adult driven to Boy lead, I need any advise and help I can get. I believe that the rules are thier for a purpose, we all try and put the best program for the scouts. But we need to appeal to the boy's in our area, which can be night, and day. So every program needs to work for them not a cookie cutter mold.

 

Sorry for the rant

YIS

Doug

[Eamonn]

"So I'm gonna ask outright, eh? Can we agree, as a bunch of brother and sister Scouters, not to ever again accuse a brother or sister scouter of "not doing the BSA program" in public, especially in a way that implies they are dishonorable or should just quit da organization?"

I'm sorry Beavah,in the light of some of what has been posted here in the forum, it seems clear to me that some people are not following the program and are acting recklessly and in ways that place children in danger.

While of course you, I and many experienced people who have been around for a while know what should and what shouldn't be allowed to go on -Even if at times we might not agree.

Sadly not everyone does.

Going back to the "Sod -Surfing" -Many of the families in the area where I live have tractors and lots of sod.

Some people do seem to think that once they see something on the web, that is has to be.

While someone posting "I'm thinking of doing sod-surfing" might be one thing. The guy who posts what fun sod surfing is and when someone points out that this is very dangerous then goes on to defend it as a great and safe activity, seeming not to care about the safety of the Scouts is a totally different thing.

When someone clearly is not following the program and is doing so knowingly. - I for one have no problem telling them so.

Eamonn.

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

I know to what Beavah is referring... its the underlying attitude in some posters responses that the person is wrong or should be ashamed, or should leave scouting or his/her current leadership position.

 

I know to what Beavah is NOT referring, and that is to dangerous actions, complete disregard for BSA policies and procedures and things that could result in liability issues. These issues should continue to be pointed out and strongly discouraged.

 

The vast majority of posts, however, are fellow scouts with noble and honorable intentions who are doing their best in their local troop.

 

Let's try this: let's assume that the person making the post is trying to do his or her best to deliver the Scouting program to these young men. Let's assume they are looking to these forums to get advice and encouragement from fellow Scouters around the globe so that they can deliver a better program to these young men. Let's assume that we are talking face to face with the person and that you'll have to look him or her directly in the eye when you speak to them.

 

Let he who is without sin cast the first Scout.

 

:-)