Three Levels of Boy Scouts

[OldGreyEagle]

Spin off from WInter Camping Thread to not hijack it

 

The Three Levels of Boy Scouts (taken from the Scout Handbook):

 

New Scout Patrols

Experienced Scout Patrols

Venture Scout Patrols (not to be confused with Venturing which is a separate program entirely)

[emb021]

"The Three Levels of Boy Scouts (taken from the Scout Handbook):

 

"New Scout Patrols

"Experienced Scout Patrols

"Venture Scout Patrols "

 

It's "Venture Patrols", never 'Venture Scout' or 'Venture Scouts'.

 

However, I have had some leaders claim that National has gotten rid of Venture Patrols, but I have yet to see evidence of this.

[Oak Tree]

It seems to me that the Venture patrol idea has certainly been de-emphasized, but they haven't gotten rid of them. You can still buy the VENTURE strip for the uniform.

[Its Me]

 

 

Yep Boy Scouts is looking more and more like Cub scouts, where divisions are based on age and adult leaders are training the youths.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, yeh can still buy da Venture strips, but all of the booklets are gone, the pins and the letters have been reserved for Varsity, and with each new publication the language gets changed to "older Boy Scouts." It's bein' decomissioned in favor of Venturing. But yeh might still see a reference here or there to "older Boy Scouts who might be in a patrol focused on high adventure activities."

 

Final nail will be if da new Handbook eliminates the reference entirely, as OGE suggests.

 

 

[Eagledad]

Great Friday All

 

That is good news in my opinion, but there was once a rumor that National would also lower the max age in the Troop to 15. Is that rumor still around?

 

If that happens, in my opinion the quality of leadership developement will go down because 15 is the age when a boy (man really) is mature enough to lead, and wants to lead.

 

Barry

[Bob White]

The divisions in scouting have always been age based, and adults have always been involved in training at the troop level since the introduction of Scout troops. I do not see how this suddenly makes Boy Scouting more like Cub Scouting?

[emb021]

A few comments.

 

The fact that the "Venture" strip is still available is hardly proof. There are scout shops still selling "Venture Crew Guide" paatches, when that position was replaced with just patrol leaders back in 1998! (ten years ago!!!).

 

Beaver is right that over the last 4-5 years National has more and more de-emphasising the Venture patrol, and taken away the pins and letters, which are now exclusively for the use of Varsity Scouts. I've heard rumors of the demise of the Venture Patrol since 2001, and have YET to see ANYTHING official to that affect. But the general lack of info on the program leads one to think...

 

I've heard of no rumor of lowing the upper age limit of Boy Scout troops. To be honest, I am for it, but would set it to be 14. In most countries, "Boy Scouts" (which in many places, not all, is co-ed) ends at 14, at which point the boys/youth must move to the 'older youth program' which may be called "Venture", "Venture Scouts", "Venturing", "Explorer Scouts" or the like, until 18, at which point they can be either adults or go into a Rover program (or equiv). I really, really, really wish the BSA would end Boy Scouts at 14, at which point boys can go into Varsity Scouts if they still want to do 'boy scouting', or go into Venturing or Sea Scouts. This would really end the nonsense of Venturing 'stealing my boys', and give the older boys a more age appropriate program, rather then have them tied down to a scout troop with 11-13 year olds.

 

 

 

[epalmer84]

Michael is correct- our Scout Shop had Assistant Scoutmaster - Varsity patches until recently.

 

There is a nice chart of various Scouting organizations and their age groups at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Groups_in_Scouting_and_Guiding

 

The BSA is the only one listed that has overlapping age sections like Boy Scouting and Venturing.

 

Ed

[Stosh]

Lowering the scouting age from 18 to 15/14? That really puts the challenge on any youth to pull off an Eagle in only 3-4 years time. Talk about a fast-track program!

 

For those who think the difference between Scouting and Venturing is only age and maturity are obviously ill informed of the programs. I am a SM and an VA. The programs are two different animals and only those who try and parallel them find their programs on the ropes.

 

Venturing starts at 14, maybe we ought to Eagle our scouts at 13 so they will be ready to cross over to Venturing? We may have to water down the BS advancement requirements to get them to Eagle in only 3 years.

 

With that being said, it would be a good thing to investigate Venturing and find out that it is not the old Super Scout Exploring General Interest posts anymore. All the hype for High Adventure Crews prove that this dynamic is not the draw for our young people as it once was. I do not have a high adventure crew and we are solid, focused, and very successful. However, the only boys that have Eagled in the crew have been those that have stayed active in their troops. This is a requirement for membership in our crew.

 

I do believe there is still an Exploring program in the BSA which focuses on career activities, i.e. police, fire, medical, business, etc. while Venturing program focuses on hobby/sport/recreational activities. Those that promote advancement amongst the members tend to be only from the recreational crews. I have had a crew for 9 years and not one member has ever fulfilled one Ranger requirement, nor are they interested in doing so. It is a special interest crew, and we focus totally on that interest and that's what keeps our people coming back, including charter members that are now adult leaders.

 

If one sticks with the purpose and directives of Scouting they will do a lot better than those that try the mix-and-match method of borrowing bits and pieces from different programs and try and create a viable hybrid.

 

As a leader I have two entirely different styles of leadership in each of the groups. In BS the program is boy-led, patrol-method where the boys do everything. In the Crew it is basically adult-led. The nature of the beast dictates it has to be that way and it is with National's approval it be done that way.

 

One has to understand the dynamics of Cubbing, Scouting and Venturing in order to make them work. They really do overlap quite a bit and yet are all independent at the same time.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

Great Scouting All

 

>> Lowering the scouting age from 18 to 15/14? That really puts the challenge on any youth to pull off an Eagle in only 3-4 years time. Talk about a fast-track program!

[Eamonn]

Few if any of the Troops in the area where I live have ever managed to have all of these three levels working at the same time.

Depending on what the definition of "Experienced Scout Patrols" is? I'm not sure if we even manage to get there!

I don't know what the average size of a Troop is?

Looking at the size of Troops in my area they are small.

I have not been able to get a break down by age.

Looking from the outside, it seems to me that the Troops with older Scouts (16+) tend to be the smaller Troops, with no younger boys. The larger Troops seem to have a lot of very young Scouts (Under 13) and very few active older Scouts.

 

Back in December, I was invited to a COH. OJ's SM was stepping down and the Troop was presenting him with a gift.

I was taken back by how few Scouts were there. I didn't count, but I'm sure that there wasn't any more than 12.

Earlier this week I received the membership report for the district. It had 22 Scouts listed. Later in the same week I was at a meeting and the new SM was there. He was going on about how a Scout from the Troop had not passed an ESBOR. Thankfully, I had not been involved in any part of that!! But he made mention that the Troop was going to fall apart. He said that he had 13 Scouts about to get Eagle and once they had it they would be gone!! (The membership report I read was the end of year report. This of course doesn't show how many Scouts had left the Troop since it rechartered last January.)

By coincidence at this meeting I mentioned that we (The District) needed to do what we could to see about re-starting a Pack which is in the next town, but just down the road from this SM's Troop. I said how not having a Pack was hurting this other Troop.

Our District Commissioner was involved with the Pack that normally feeds the "Eagle" Troop. He said that I didn't have to worry about the Troop with no Pack as all the Webelos Scouts from the Eagle Troop. (Same CO, same number.) Were going to the other Troop. From what he knew there were about 14 of these Webelos Scouts.

I looked at the membership report, the Troop where all these little Lads are going is listed as having 8 Boy Scouts.

With so many new Scouts I kinda think the Leaders will put their time and energy into looking after these new guys. With luck they will remember that there is still 8 "Old Timers". Still I kinda think the 8 old timers will get lost and fed up "Looking after the little kids."

Mean while back in the Eagle Scout Troop, 13 new Eagle Scouts will receive their Eagle and take for the hills.

The recharter numbers will show how many Scouts the Troop is left with. I'm thinking - Maybe about 8 or 9.

These levels look good on paper.

I'm just not so sure about how they work in the real world?

As ever I'm sure they do and can work in some units.

I'm very aware of what is not working.

Yes I know 13 Eagle Scouts!!

I'm not saying that these levels or ideas need to go out with the bath water.

I'm just not so so about them.

Smaller units will have a very hard time.

Eamonn.

 

[Stosh]

I just took over a declining troop that has 5 active boys 14-16. I will now receive 10 new Webelos crossovers. (First time in 3 years this has happened.) The last thing on my mind is the difference in ages. Is there something for everyone? (I'm going to an Eagle COH this afternoon for a boy that aged out a couple of months ago.) Another 16 year old is excited he's going to have a nice work crew for his Eagle project he'll start this spring, and the other boys are gearing up for advanced leadership positions that weren't needed when the group was small. 90% of what these few boys were looking for was an opportunity. Now they're getting it big time and the talk amongst the boys has taken on a whole different tone.

 

I'm a firm believer that much of what we as adults think is the problem isn't what's bothering the youth. What the adults need to do is quit leading and start listening. To me that is what a mentor/counselor does. As the boys get older this is even more evident and manditory on the part of the adults. Ever listen to a 16-year-old talk to their parents? "You're not listening!" is the phrase used most often. And believe it or not, they're right! we aren't listening.

 

One of the most critical elements in leadership is the opportunity to actually lead. This is often doled out in little bits and pieces along the way, only under major supervisory circumstances. For many years (11-15 year olds) we make promises and lead discussions on how to lead, when they are old enough to actually do the job, we don't let them, a few turn their attentions on themselves because there is no one else to lead, get their Eagle and then disappear. Otherwise those that are not inclined by rank advancement and honors, just disappear.

 

The reasons for disappearing are numbered in the thousands, but each one has a common tone/theme, something else is more valuable to me than what you are offering... and they're probably right again.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Bob White]

Nicely done jblake47! You and Eamonn make some excellent points.(This message has been edited by Bob White)