Drivers License and Eagle

[BrotherhoodWWW]

Offhand I know of one parent in our Troop that has this over her son(s)head. I do not think it is the right thing to do nor do I think it is fair to either the Scout or the rest of the troop. We also have a few scouts involved that only seem to be there because their parents want them to get their Eagle. IMHO I think parents efforts would be better spent encouraging their son to demonstrate Scout Spirit with an emphasis on learning the value of servant leadership.

[Scouter&mom]

I don't specifically know of anyone that used this exact line, but I suspect it (or something very similar is used often). I think many of those parents learn which troops are the MB & Eagle mills and move their sons to those troops. I know of at least two boys that have left our troop for a better fit because that was their reason for being there -- getting Eagle for the bragging rights.

 

I think of the mom who when I mentioned a conflict my son had with a band activity telling me that "thank goodness sons have earned their eagle and are through with that (scouting)." This is the same mom when asked how her oldest son had gotten an early admission letter from West Point, replied "he is an Eagle Scout." The real question was how the process worked that her son got an admission letter early and another young man (who is also an Eagle) was going for an interview with our Congressman the next week to try to secure a nomination. And the real answer was that he went to a special summer program that gave him extra points.

[Major_Dad]

All righty then...just one hot secondI have only read through a few of the posts here, but I see an alarming trend forming. Folks, there are many reasons a boy joins Scouting. Personally, I have been involved with Scouting on and off since I myself was a Boy Scout. I dropped out of Scouting after only a few years as a boy. I dropped out when I had no one taking an interest in my being a Scoutmy mom was a single parent who worked all the time. Now that I my children have brought me back into it, I enjoy it and all the wonders it brings. We take these young boys and mold and develop them into the future citizens of our Great Nation. My greatest joy is seeing a young boy develop into a responsible young man and good solid citizen almost right before my very eyes! Our focus as adult leaders should be helping them attain the goal of Scouting. For MOST Scouts, that goal is Eagle Scout. The fringe benefits these young men receive 'reaching constantly' for that lofty goal far outweigh any negative motivations which may be laid before them to complete the task they started. Isnt life itself full of similar situations? Our young men must be taught, mentored, guided to understand that they should never be willing to quit just because something becomes or seems too hard to do. By constantly presenting them with greater and greater challenges or constantly raising the bar they almost instinctively rise to the occasion to meet those challenges. However, we as adult leaders CANNOT do it for them!

 

I now have 4 sons and a daughter. Having been an active duty Marine throughout most of their young lives, I have been home on a hit and miss basis. When time allowed, I involved myself in whatever they sought to dobaseball, football, Scouts. My oldest son joined Scouting of his own desires when a recruiting effort introduced him to it at school. He remained in Scouting right up until his 18th birthday. He chose to join Boy Scouts and stick with it through good times and bad. I believe that experience helped shaped him into who he is today...a solid citizen willing to serve others. However, he only made Life Scout. He did not have any stipulations placed on him to encourage him to finish the task. He now regrets not completing Eagle. He joined the Marine Corps shortly after his first year of college. Not making Eagle hit very close to home when the Marine Corps Recruiter informed him that had he finished Eagle Scout, he would have received an automatic meritorious promotion going in. He is now serving his country in what I would consider the highest calling one could answer.

 

My next son joined Scouts and had a rough go of it and quit early. My third son is steadily pursuing his Eagle Scout. And, yes, he has a requirement before him to attain Eagle before he can receive his driver's license. He is the first of my sons so far to have that requirement. Something my oldest son told me he wished I would have done to him. However, I do not consider this goal to be the only reason for Beaus being in Scouting since HE chose to join in his brothers' footsteps. He is now quite the avid and 'expert' camper who other Scouts in his Troop seek out for guidance. He has been a constant inspiration to those around him. He has served in a variety of Troop Leadership positions and is now the SPL. He attended Summer Camp this past year and still returned to be part of the Camp Staff. He wants to be Camp Staff again this year. The form of nudging and proding (motivation) varies from family to family and Scout to Scout. Who better knows their Scouts than the parents? For some Scouts, they have needs to demonstrate a greater responsiblity to their parents before their parents will grant them the 'priviledge of receiving a full driver's license' and then the keys to a 1+ ton vehicle. Remember, driving is a priviledge not a right!

 

So, all said and done, I firmly believe that holding a parallel goal in front of a young man such as a drivers license, driving priviledges, completing their chores, participating in family events, etc., is not something that is malicious or mean. It is how are suppose to 'raise' them. Ultimately, in this situation, who wins? Ummmmthe Scout? Nothe Eagle Scout! Semper Fidelis.

[Gunny2862]

I'm going to provisionally agree with Major-Dad.

 

If the parents are interested in the child's development, and are looking at the child's personality in placing the carrots(and sticks) they are putting out to guide them. Then I will agree with what he has said.(Nice touch with the argument about showing some responsibility in completing this program before being allowed to operate a vehicle in public - I completely agree with this approach for SOME Scouts)

 

If it is a parental ego thing, and the children are just being forced to do things so the parents can say they did their jobs but the development of the child isn't truly central to the parents goal, then I have to disagree. Unfortunately I've met one set of these Parents and their minimum standard Eagles already - and in the one case we've created an excellent set of "Lawyer" Scouts who can chapter and verse the minimums of any requirement but have NO Scout Spirit that I have been able to detect. Fortunately, for me, I had no part in their Scouting Journey to Eagle and haven't seen either of them at a more than one meeting, activity or outing since the younger ones Eagle CoH.

 

For my take, it is up to the parents on what carrots and sticks they give or withhold.

I would prefer that the Scout rose to whatever Scout rank they did because they wanted to. Not for ANY privilege it grants them after the Eagle Ceremony. College grants,scholarships,loans, entrance, Military rank advancement, Car License, Parental Cash award, regardless.

 

In the interest of disclosure, and parental solidarity, all of the age group around(including) my son has had the license as carrot/stick laid out as a possibility if the parents are not satisfied with their efforts - not attainments in Scouting. In the case of my son we will be looking at his educational status, what additional activities he is doing outside of Scouting, currently Football, Wrestling, and he says Track this upcoming semester, in addition to Orchestra. If the kid has too much on their plate it's not fair to tie something as big as a license to any one achievement.

[Bob White]

I don't see how it is any of our business how parents want to motivate their kids as long as it is not abusive.

 

I do not see why as Scouters we should be concerned about this.

[Gunny2862]

BobWhite, it took me while to conjure this up and I may not still be fully cogent about it so bear with me.

 

For me, my concern is that the motivation of the Scout by the parents affects the Scout as a whole being, which, as we move into the Macro purposes of Scouting is who we are really dealing with. Not a parent driven, hopeful Eagle candidate.

 

The Parents actions are NOT anything I regulate, but If asked if I would do such and such a thing, then it behooves me to have an answer and a rationale to back it up. Which is part of the reason I lurk here so much.

 

Which, I think is where this thread started.

[Major_Dad]

Gunny...Here here! I appreicate your E-mail too! I am dead set against 'Eagle Mills!' If the Scout puts forth the effort and 'does' constantly demonstrate Scout Spirit, they deserve the advancement. However, I have literally had parents, under their breath but in ear shot of other Scouts make statements like, "I don't know why he just doesn't sign off on [that requirement]" while referencing Merit Badge Requirements, etc. This atitude unnerves me. I believe that education bout the Bo Scout program is the critical piece. All parents should be brought in as early as possible in their sons' Scouting endeavors and fully briefed on the expectations and the differences between being Cub Scouts/Webelos and Boy Scouts. Semper Fidelis.

[Major_Dad]

Bottom-line...we should be a very integral part of the development of these young men as Scouts and Citizens per the Scoutmaster Handbook. Semper Fidelis.

[Bob White]

Gunny and Major,

If you look back at the first several posts you will see that is is not about how to answer parents if they ask for our adveice. The thread has been about the motivation used for some scouts to attain Eagle.

 

How the parent wants to motivate a scout does not require us to alter the program. What a scout chooses to be motivated by does not change the advancement program or Methods of Scouting.

 

We can present scouting a way to to try and minimize parents and scouts from setting the goal for achieving Eagle for the wrong reasons. But we cannot stop them if they choose to have the wrong motivation. The bottom line is still if the requirements are met then the scout advances. If the requirements are not met, the scout does not.

 

If a scout wants to practice the Scout values and skills in order to get Eagle just get into a good college...so what? If the parent wants to withhold a driver's license or ice cream until the Scout reaches Eagle, So what? Neither effects our next meeting or adventure.

 

In either case they become an Eagle until they meet the BSA requirements.

 

My son plays the drums. Sometimes he pratices because he is in a good mood, and sometimes he practices because he is in a lousy mood, sometimes he practices so to prepare for a performance, sometimes to show off to a friend. I don't care why he practices, I just thrilled he practices. Everytime he practices he brecomes a better drummer.

 

Everytime a boy practices or completes a scouting requirement he is becoming a better scout...regardless of what his motivation is.

 

[Gunny2862]

But, that really is the point. We aren't really discussing the Scouts motivation. We're really discussing parental guidance towards the Scout. And how we see it often going awry with the focus on an achievement rather than on effort. If my son never wins another wrestling match, I'll still be proud of him if he's working every second he's on the mat. Don't get me wrong, I love winning, but where does he learn more, with half effort victories over unprepared opponents or in struggles where every ounce of prior preparation weighs into the outcome? Interesting aside, outside of Texas I've never heard of a Driver's license being tied to lettering in football.

[scoutingagain]

And I have to admit, I find the discussion somewhat foreign to me because in the last 7 years and some 8 - 10 Eagles later, I've never been associated with one that had the DL issue held over their head and had never heard of it before it was posted in these forums.

 

SA

 

 

[Bob White]

After well over several dozen Eagle Scouts, I have not known of a parent to do this. That does not mean they didn't, just that as the adult leader I do not need to know or expect to know everything a parent and scout discuss.

 

Even if I had known it would not have altered anything I did as a Scout leader or anything the troop did as a program. This is betwen a boy and his parent and does not involve the BSA or troop program.

[Gunny2862]

I hate writing it again but it didn't go last time.

BobWhite, it may not be what you mean but I am hearing you say that you deliver the program to a collection of bodies and by extension that you don't try to get to know them as individuals.

 

I say again that if the DL, or anything else, is used as a Carrot or a Stick it should be based on effort vice achievement AND with the aptitude and personality of the Scout in mind.

I also try to get to know my Scouts and what is going on in their lives so I can propely counsel them in informal sessions as well as at SM Conferences. AND that doesn't mean the requirements get altered but maybe my method of dealing with each Scout does.

[Bob White]

I think you misunderstand me Gunny. I am not saying what you suggest.

 

I am saying that I am the Scout leader and not the parent. I lead the scout program, the parent...parents the scout. It is not my role to tell a parent what they can or cannot do with their son in regards to a drivers license (something that has nothing to do with the scout program or with how I relate to the scout).

 

If the parent asks my opinion I will share it, but do not think for a moment that having an opinion means I have any authority in the matter. It is not a Scout leaders job to tell parents what to do with their children.

 

No matter how a parent chooses to motivate their children it does not effect what our roles are as scout leaders.

 

I had a parent with two boys in the troop who told them that if they achieved Eagle he would put $5000 in their bank account. Not a method I would choose but he is the parent and can do what he wants woith his kids and his money.

 

The fact that they had $5,000 dangling on the stick had no effect on me or on my role as the leader. Was I supposed to make the requirements different for them. Which was I supposed to do make them harder or easier? Were we supposed to change our camping plans? Sell more popcorn or less popcorn? Do I change the merit badge selection? Do I change the way I talk to the scouts?

 

Or do I let the parents be parenbts and I be the Scouting leader?

 

How exactly does the parents choice of reward effect me as a leader, the way I interact with a Scout, or the program I lead.

 

[Gunny2862]

BobWhite, of course the parent is the parent. Of course they can and do whatever they want - within legal boundaries - with THEIR children.

For the nth time, no changing the program requiring more or less of them.

But phrased differently for the nth time also - don't you think the way the parent deals with THEIR child influences who the child is? And thus the pesonality of the Scout that I as Scoutmaster deal with.

Or do you think Scouts are all the same and so you talk to each one exactly the same way? It comes across ( to me ) as though you have a script and only say exactly the same thing to every Scout.

 

I really have better things to do than semantically parse this discussion, however I also read your posts as rather demeaning and condecending (bad connotation) and am loath to drop it under those terms.

I really think we probably agree more than disagree but feel you are being overly pedantic and possibly not reading my posts.

if there is some excess bolding text formatting isn't translating from my phone. I only intended to bold "reading".(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)