Issues with the current SM

[gwd-scouter]

Jwall, I've read your post but it seems a bit vague to me. You say the Scoutmaster runs the Troop like a dictatorship - his way or no way - so I ask for a bit more information about your troop. What exactly is 'his way'?

 

You've been with the troop for nine months. Did you and your son, and some of the other upset parents, cross-over from Webelos?

 

What is the outdoor program like? How many times in that nine months have you gone camping? What other activities have occurred in that time? Did you go to summer camp?

 

Fifteen Scouts have left in nine months? Wow, in our area that would completely knock out several troops. Were the boys that left new cross-overs (perhaps with your son) or Scouts that had been in the Troop for a while? How many boys are left now? What is the age range of the Scouts?

 

How old is your Troop? How long has the SM been in the job? Is he trained? How about the Committee people and ASMs? Are they trained?

 

Your post says there is no boy leadership. What are the Scouts in PORs required to do? What are the meetings like? Who runs them? Any skills sessions going on? Games? Does your troop have a PLC and, if so, when do they meet and what do they do during the meetings?

 

You post that you "have gathered from a few trusty sources" that your Troop is way off course. That indicates to me that you haven't made the observations yourself, perhaps because you have not yet been to ASM training and do not know the methods of Scouting and how they should be implemented in a Troop?

 

No uniform code in your Troop. What does that mean? Does anyone wear the uniform? Does the SM? Do you?

 

Adults and parents want to do things for the boys. Can you give me some examples of what you mean?

 

You post you will stick it out for a few more months to see if any changes are made that supposedly have been in the works for two years. What, specifically, are the changes you're expecting?

 

I ask all these questions to get a clearer picture of your Troop. From your original post, all I can gather is that you dislike the way the SM is running things and have already tried to oust him. I can say that from a parent's point of view a few years ago when I stepped up as SM, it may have appeared that I was a dictator. I was trying to revive a failing troop and had to take a pretty hard line in the beginning to jump start the program.

 

As far as the SM not going on any campouts: I am a SM who does not go on every campout. I did in the first couple of years, but sadly a health issue has caused me to back out on the more strenuous or cold adventures.

 

If things can't be worked out in your Troop, are there others you can join? If you crossed-over from Webelos, did you visit these other troops? If so, what made you choose the Troop you are in now?

 

In the end, whether you decide to step up as SM or start a new troop with some of the other parents and boys, keep in mind that it will not be easy. Sure, as Gold Winger posted, the mechanics and paperwork of starting a troop is easy. But, the operation of that new Troop or the resuscitation of the old will take enormous effort and commitment - for several years. I've seen my share of disgruntled parents starting a troop, only to have it fold in a few years when their boys quit, aged out, Eagled, or whatever. This is the situation I stepped into when my younger son joined the Troop. It was started by a few upset parents and struggled for years. To run a successful troop, among many other things, you have to be there for ALL the boys.

 

 

 

 

[jwall]

I am enclosing my replies after the questions, it will probably make it easier

 

Jwall, I've read your post but it seems a bit vague to me. You say the Scoutmaster runs the Troop like a dictatorship - his way or no way - so I ask for a bit more information about your troop. What exactly is 'his way'?

 

His way is as follows, he does it all, the ASM's are told not to do a thing, not help out, not run a skill for the boys (ie have a hiking demonstration), or show them altertnative ways to get merit badges (we have sea world by us and they held a camp, more boys would hav signed up to go if they knew, he said we are not a merit badge factory.) Then when it all goes bad he blames the ASM's We have boys who dont camp and dont come to meetings in 18months an they make it to Eagle? That shows Scout Spirit. He flips out when you tell him gear is bust (ill use an example of the adult leaders equipment our stove has 2 temperatures off and full blast. Hs reply "

it worked fine years ago" He hasnt been on a trip in 18 months so how ould he knows what works"

 

You've been with the troop for nine months. Did you and your son, and some of the other upset parents, cross-over from Webelos?

 

No not at all, I was an ASM at another troop that got phased out, The other parents have been there for 2 + years.

What is the outdoor program like? How many times in that nine months have you gone camping? What other activities have occurred in that time? Did you go to summer camp?

Yes I personally went to our local summer camp about 40 minutes away for the whole time. Our SM never showed up once. We had some emergencies and he never called back. We usually go camping once a month but the trips are boring and less and less boys are showing up. As for other activites, you mean we can do stuff during the rest of the month (I joke) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. No hikes, no backpacking, no patrol let alone good turn by the Scouts. NADDA.

Fifteen Scouts have left in nine months? Wow, in our area that would completely knock out several troops. Were the boys that left new cross-overs (perhaps with your son) or Scouts that had been in the Troop for a while? How many boys are left now? What is the age range of the Scouts?We have about 30 left after the 15, age range of boys 1st and 2nd years make up most of our troop so say 75 % and 25%older nonexistent boys. As for the ones who left it was a mixture, some older some new, some new transferred Eagles, they sat in the meeting for 4 weeks SM never said boo or assigned them to a patrol.

 

How old is your Troop? How long has the SM been in the job? Is he trained? How about the Committee people and ASMs? Are they trained?

 

As for how old is the troop not quite sure 10 15 years. Trained as far as I know we all are, we ASMs dont have access to the troop master as they dont give us that privi.

 

Your post says there is no boy leadership. What are the Scouts in PORs required to do? What are the meetings like? Who runs them? Any skills sessions going on? Games? Does your troop have a PLC and, if so, when do they meet and what do they do during the meetings? Meetings are a joke,

 

POR boys sit and play magic all night most of the time. Skills sessions ya maybe once every 3 months when I and a few others **** about it, Games seems all they do. The SPL has come to the meeting going yup didnt plan anything guys, we are just going to play games. Funny the SM son is the SPL hmmmm a link?

 

You post that you "have gathered from a few trusty sources" that your Troop is way off course. That indicates to me that you haven't made the observations yourself, perhaps because you have not yet been to ASM training and do not know the methods of Scouting and how they should be implemented in a Troop?

 

I have been to training became an Eagle Scout so am Quite familiar with the program. As for observation myself, I have been to all campouts except one (more than the 8 more than the SM), I cook at the majority, I have missed no meeting and one committee meeting so Ya I have seen the issues and problems first hand, as from Trusty sources I would say they are people in district, people who have written books on being a SM and some websites.

 

No uniform code in your Troop. What does that mean? Does anyone wear the uniform? Does the SM? Do you?

 

LEt see we have wrinkled and dirty shirts, no shirts, jeans, no neckerchiefs or hats, hmmm looking like hobos. I wear the uniform the SM does maybe 5% of the boys, 95% of the adults do some just get off right from work to be there,

 

Adults and parents want to do things for the boys. Can you give me some examples of what you mean?

 

We would like to do patrol hikes and other camping during the month, we get shot down by NOT WHILE IM SM or NOT IN MY TROOP. We want the boys to actually learn something and since the older boys are playing magic or jerking around we would liek to show them some hiking demonstrations, or how to cook that would be a good one since most burn water. (I put together a 88 page how to cook cookbook with recipes for the boys ... ya that has disappeared. even after I got props for my Dutch OVen Skills. That is supposed to be the SM badge of honor cooking the Dutch Oven I heard. Well sorry for working in a gourmet restaurant for 3 + years and I know how to cook)

 

You post you will stick it out for a few more months to see if any changes are made that supposedly have been in the works for two years. What, specifically, are the changes you're expecting?

 

Changes ANYTHIN!!! older boys who lead, skills, patrol competitions, learn somethign anything for goodness sakes. Learn the cha cha something so we dont sit there and keep looking at the clock and swear its broken cause time stands still.

 

I ask all these questions to get a clearer picture of your Troop. From your original post, all I can gather is that you dislike the way the SM is running things and have already tried to oust him. I can say that from a parent's point of view a few years ago when I stepped up as SM, it may have appeared that I was a dictator. I was trying to revive a failing troop and had to take a pretty hard line in the beginning to jump start the program.

 

As far as the SM not going on any campouts: I am a SM who does not go on every campout. I did in the first couple of years, but sadly a health issue has caused me to back out on the more strenuous or cold adventures.

 

But you at least go on a campout here and there. His work wont allow him the flexibility there. Seriously our campouts are so bad, boys are in complete anarchy and he never sees or deals with it.

 

If things can't be worked out in your Troop, are there others you can join? If you crossed-over from Webelos, did you visit these other troops? If so, what made you choose the Troop you are in now?

 

Yes there are others to join we know of one just starting out. No I did not cross over (short reply to a long answer xwife refused to let me be a part of my sons Webelos experience)

 

In the end, whether you decide to step up as SM or start a new troop with some of the other parents and boys, keep in mind that it will not be easy. Sure, as Gold Winger posted, the mechanics and paperwork of starting a troop is easy. But, the operation of that new Troop or the resuscitation of the old will take enormous effort and commitment - for several years. I've seen my share of disgruntled parents starting a troop, only to have it fold in a few years when their boys quit, aged out, Eagled, or whatever. This is the situation I stepped into when my younger son joined the Troop. It was started by a few upset parents and struggled for years. To run a successful troop, among many other things, you have to be there for ALL the boys.

 

I agree he needs to be there for ALL the boys ALL THE TIME. My SM missed 2 campouts and 0 meeings when I was a boy thats it.

So does that give you some food for thought and clarification?

[Lisabob]

jwall, welcome to the forum and sorry to hear about your situation. Having read through this thread I think your best option is probably to find another troop in your area. If the SM has the CC's backing and isn't interested in a helping hand from his ASMs then you are in for a rough ride if you stay. Things probably will not change radically anytime soon, especially if the current SM's son is going to be there for a while (which tells me the SM isn't going to go willingly, and you've already tried ousting him, to no good end). Your dis-satisfaction with the current situation will almost certainly be evident for your son, even if he is more or less ok with the troop right now.

 

Just keep in mind that there are no "perfect" troops, that it is easier to critique a leader than to be one, and that ultimately this is your son's experience - you're along for the ride so give a lot of weight to his opinion on what troop he wants to be part of.

[jwall]

Thanks Lisabob,

 

I agree it is always harder to lead than follow and I personally think thats what happend in our meeting with the SM, they were torn between should we stay with what we know or let me take over. Change can be a scary thing. I know my son and the other Scouts that are having problems will all be going together so I am sure that will ease the transition. As for perfect, one can only wish. I just want one that is actually doing close to the program not this mutated ball of wax.

 

J

[Crossramwedge]

Speaking from a CC's point of view I would say you are fighting a lost cause. If the CC backs him as you say then the only recourse you would have is to go to the COR and he probably already knows what is going on. Your Unit Commissioner can talk to the COR and the CO. But at the end of the day if the CC, COR and the CO are in agreement then its time for you to move on because all the bases have been covered and nothing is going to change.

[Crossramwedge]

Speaking from a CC's point of view I would say you are fighting a lost cause. If the CC backs him as you say then the only recourse you would have is to go to the COR and he probably already knows what is going on. Your Unit Commissioner can talk to the COR and the CO. But at the end of the day if the CC, COR and the CO are in agreement then its time for you to move on because all the bases have been covered and nothing is going to change.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

I've seen versions of this situation more than a few times, eh? Not my personal choice for an ideal program, but it's comfortable for the older parents and kids. At the same time, many of us here would agree with things like not usin' a one-day badge mill program, and that's certainly SM's choice. 30 boys in the troop is really quite something, and suggests they are at least runnin' on some positive past momentum even if things aren't ideal now. It also raises the possibility that the thing that has changed and caused the loss of 15 boys is not the troop, but the adult conflict which went on this year.

 

You takin' over abruptly would cause a lot of changes, perhaps many of 'em positive. But that would be too much for the older boys, who would all come to hate you and quit. Read da CC & SM's actions as defendin' their own children, and the 45-scout program they built.

 

In these situations, a patient man who builds relationships with the SM and younger lads can slowly effect a long-term change. It might go faster than that since if the SM's not on campouts, whatever adults are leadin' the campouts can set the expectations and tone. No fair blamin' the SM for campsite anarchy if he ain't there . That takes some creativity, to introduce more fun and skills here and there, and pull boys in. A lot more work than complainin'.

 

But if you're lookin' for a shorter-term improvement/shift to your way of thinkin', that ain't gonna happen. Which brings us back to

 

1) My son is doing fine and likes the troop. He stays in, and I apologize, stay away and stay quiet, or help out in small ways that bring fun to campouts, and build positive relationships for da future.

 

2) My son doesn't like the troop either (or I push him to that view by my attitude), so we leave in favor of a new troop.

 

Both options are fine, eh? My guess is the same as Lisabobwhite's, though. Given the history and where you're at, it's probably time to look elsewhere.

 

Beavah

 

[jwall]

Bevah,

 

Thanks for the advice. I would like to say I do try and introduce new ideas or fun with the younger boys on the camp outs. Tried to do a dutch oven cooking demo but that got blown out of the water as thats the SM "thingy". As for projecting my attitude towards my son and influencing his decision for "should we stay or should we go now" as proclaimed by The Clash, I let him choose as this is for him. He came up to me and said "Hey Pop, how come we dont do anything in the meetings except play these dumb games like dodgeball? When are we going to learn something?" Mind you my son is an uber geek (guess he gets it from his dad) and loves Scouts but he feels something is lacking.

 

I appreciate the advice and it looks like we will ride it out for a few months and see if anything changes ... and during that time be looking around at other troops in the area to lay the ground work if we are going to go.

 

YIS

 

Jon

Eagle Scout Class of 1992

[dan]

jwall

I am not sure you understand what a boy scout troop should be. I maybe incorrect on this but if you are looking for a troop where the adult leaders show the scouts a dutch oven cooking or any other skills presentation you are looking for a Webelos III troop in my opinion. Which sounds like the troop you are in now.

I have been an ASM for 6 years, it usually is a pretty boring role in the troop. There is nothing for me to do. Which is what an ASM role is to just be there. The leadership should be coming from the scouts. During troop meetings I am usually bored out of my mind. On campouts it is not as boring I can walk around talk to the patrols and get to know the scouts.

[jwall]

Dan,

 

Thanks for the reply. Well we have no boy leadership so hence why something needs to change.

 

Follow my thought, it should be older boys show younger boys. Correct?

 

Well we have the void of older boys, see they have piano lessons and such and cant come to meetings and they are busy and stuff (a new Eagles parent explanation to me as to why they couldn't come to a meeting or camp out in 18 months). So who else is going to show the younger boys how its done? See our problem? If you have a solution of what to do let me know. I have racked my brain on this one. I can not find a solution other than show them how its done to get it back on track, then the others can show the new ones coming in.

 

Thanks

 

Jon

[dan]

jwall

IMNSHO it should be the troop guides or troop instructors that should be training the other scouts. Age should not have anything to do with it. It should be the SM job to train the guides or instructors. It does not have to be the SM that trains them, he should just see that they are prepared to do the training at the meetings or campouts.

 

[T164Scoutmaster]

We all have issues at one time or another. YOu are in a situation where you can guide teh troop to a new horizon.

 

Your opportunity to handle this situation is to do it on the outings when the scoutmaster is not there. If the outings are boring, step up and do something about it.

 

You said you worked in a gourmet restaraunt for several years. Do a weekend of feast with a taste off and have some prizes to hand out. Small cast iron skillet painted gold etc.

 

Kids do nothing because they have nothing to do and not the education or expereince to come up with things on their own.

 

You are an Eagle! No one can take that away from you. Take on your past experiences and step up when the scoutmaster is not around. Be there to help guide, mentor and direct the troop on the outings. As has been said already the outings is scouting. sounds like the scoutmaster says we are camping here...... But I won't be there! So do the prep work yourself and incorporate some of those ideas you have.

 

Patrol meetings are things that should happen on their own and in my oppinion really don't need permission just two deep leadership. Work with your sons patrol when ever you want.

 

That will solve a bunch of your issues by you filling in the role without having the title. To fullfill the role of Scoutmaster you will need a tool box: Scout handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook, Committee Guidbook, and the requirments book to start. Don't just have them read them from cover to cover. Next if you have not already (sounds iffy on your training) Go to New Leader Essentials, ans asm speciffic, sm speciffic, and outdoor leader skills, and don't stop there, go to wood badge. Knowledge is power. Execution of your knowledge is leadership.

 

Your outings will work out and put the fun in the program. The first outing can be planned to go over why we do duty rosters, menus, and grocerey lists. Stress why that is th estuff that should be done at meetings.

 

So now on to meetings: My way or no Way at all. It is a free country. Start with yourself in the corner just start lashing something, or asking your son to help you review first aid, or set up some basic compass courses and keep doing it. even if none of the scouts are interested. you are not violating any rules and not pushing any program and if asked you are honing the skills you learned as a youth. If any youth asks, this is the perfect opportunity to ask them if they want to try or if they want to learn.

 

Use your strengths to promote the program as you can. as you start to gather interest ask then boys to follow the patrol method and implement it as you can.

 

My only stressor is make sure you know what you are doing inside and out and make sure you know what the current requirements are and the current handbook is teaching.

 

My first 5 years as Scoutmaster I had to read two hand books cover to cover as they changed requirements and handbooks after i was up to date. granted there were few changes but there were some taht needed to be corrected. Now I am on my third edition scout handbook as scoutmaster and again things have changed and been taken out. You need to know what you are talking about and where to find it.

 

Lastly, you didn't mention it but if you don't go then start attending roundtables, if you do go start bringing other parents to them.

 

Set the Example and remember you only need: "To do your BEST"

 

Hang in there and keep the candle of scout spirit shining! The glass is half full!

[gwd-scouter]

Jwall, Thanks for your responses to my questions. It does seem you have quite a mess on your hands and based on what you've posted I would agree with others that it is probably time to move on to another Troop.

 

On the other hand, you mention that you've been on a number of campouts with the troop over the past nine months. If the SM is not there, what prevents you and other like-minded ASMs from eliminating the anarchy and producing a campout that meets your expectations? From what you've posted, the older Scouts are not interested and the younger guys have never had any guidance, so you will probably have to do a lot of hand-holding in the beginning to get the Scouts motivated. You will also probably have to resign yourself to the fact that the older Scouts are used to the way things have been done and are not likely to change. Good news is that with proper attention to the younger guys and good training and mentoring in developing their leadership, eventually those older guys will age out and the (now) younger guys will be the older Scouts leading the troop. It takes time, but it can happen.

 

Since I do not know all the details of what is going on in your Troop and only reading one side of the issues, I will say that it is unfortunate that within nine months of joining the troop you and others tried to oust the SM. That, in itself, will probably cause the current SM to dig in his heels and impede and progress you try to make in helping the Troop. Sad, but human nature is what it is and sometimes we adults don't exactly behave nicely. So, in the end, with bad feelings flowing around in your Troop, it may be best to move on.

 

 

[local1400]

Ok Jon, finish the song: 'If I go there will be trouble, but if I stay there will be DOUBLE, so come on and let me know, should I stay or should I go? This indecision's killing me...'

[Its Me]

 

For goodness sake just leave. Its a youth program run by volunteers; not all will be well run. You didn't enlist your son in a five year program with this guy. Have a meeting with the disgruntled parents, seek out other troops and leave. If two - three other boys go to the same troop you and your son choose, great. If none come, they will after a few months.

 

Boy Scouting is a product. Its meant to train, develop and entertain boys. If these things aren't happening at your present troop then the product your son is receiving is defective. Seek out a new boy scout troop where the entire package is delivered. Then leave and don't look back.