Guide to Safe Scouting

[donert]

THE PART IN QUESTION OF THE SAFE GUIDE TO SCOUTING:

 

TROOP VERSION: IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE OFFICIAL BSA TRANSPORTATION POLICY (REFERENCE: TOURS AND EXPEDITIONS, NO 33737) THE TROOP COMMITTEE HAS UNAMIOUSLY APPROVED OUR TROOP POLICY FOR YOUTH DRIVERS. A YOUTH DRIVER IS ANY LEGALLY LICIENCE DRIVER UNDER THE AGE OF 18 YEARS OLD.

 

IT IS THE POLICY OF THE TROOP WHEN TRAVELING TO AND FROM AN OFFICIAL TROOP, AREA, REGIONAL, OR NATIONAL ACTIVITY THAT:

 

- THAT THE TROOP WILL ENSURE SUFFICIENT TRANSPORTATIION, IN ACCORDANCE WITH BSA POLICIES WILL BE AVAILABLE SUCH THAT ALL SCOUTS MAY PARTISIPATE IN A PLANNED TROOP ACTIVITY.

 

- NO YOUTH UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE IS PERMITTED TO BE A DRIVER.

 

- NO YOUTH WILL BE ALLOWED TO BE A PASSENGER WITH A YOUTH DRIVER UNDER THE AGE OF 18.

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BSA VERSION: AN ADULT LEADER (AT LEAST 21 YEARS OF AGE) MUST BE IN CHARGE AND ACCOMPANY THE GROUP.

 

THE DRIVER MUST BE CURRENTLY LICIENCED AND AT LEAST 18 YEARS OF AGE.

 

YOUTH MEMBER EXCEPTION: WHEN TRAVELING TO AND FROM AN AREA, REGIONAL, OR NATIONAL BOY SCOUT ACITIVTY OR ANY VENTURING EVENT UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF AN ADULT(AT LEAST 21 YEARS OF AGE) TOUR LEADER, A YOUTH MEMBER AT LEAST 16 YEARS OF AGE MAY BE A DRIVER, SUBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS:

 

-SIX MONTHS' DRIVING EXPERIENCE AS A LICIENCED DRIVER ( LEARNER'S PERMIT TIME DOES NOT COUNT AS EXPERIENCE).

-NO RECORD OF ACCIDENTS OR MOVING VIOLATIONS

-PARENTAL PERMISSION GRANTED TO THE LEADER, DRIVER, AND RIDERS.

(REFERENCE: TOURS AND EXPEDITIONS, NO. 33737)

 

IF THE GUIDE TO SAFE SCOUTING HAS THIS WRITTEN IN IT CAN THE TROOP CHANGE THE RULES?

[Gold Winger]

The short answer is "yes."

 

In general, you can always make safety rules more restrictive. For example, even though national has no policy regarding 12" Bowie knives, a troop is withing its rights to prohibit them.

 

I am wondering how many area, regional or national events does your troop attend that would allow youth to drive if you followed G2SS? I'd guess not many because there aren't that many area events, or regional events, or even national events.

 

Bear in mind that camporees and merit badge classes are not "area events." An "area" is comprised of a number of councils. So(This message has been edited by Gold winger)

[Gold Winger]

post duplicated(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[Eamonn]

donert,

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=youth+drivers

 

Is what we are talking about?

It states:

It is essential that adequate, safe, and responsible transportation be used for all Scouting activities. Because most accidents occur within a short distance from home, safety precautions are necessary, even on short trips.

 

General guidelines are as follows:

 

Seat belts are required for all occupants.

All drivers must have a valid driver's license that has not been suspended or revoked for any reason. If the vehicle to be used is designed to carry more than 15 persons, including the driver (more than 10 persons, including the driver, in California), the driver must have a commercial driver's license (CDL).

An adult leader (at least 21 years of age) must be in charge and accompany the group.

The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions:

Six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted)

No record of accidents or moving violations

Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders.

 

There has in the past been some debate about the difference between Boy Scouts and Venturers.

The rule as I read it states that:

"Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age)"

This leads me to ask, how often do the Boy Scouts in the Troop you serve attend "an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity"?

If a Boy Scout is not attending an event of this nature, he isn't covered by the Youth Member Exception.

My son was a Scout from age 11 -18.

He got his driving permit when he was 16, took and passed the driving test when he was 16 and a half. The requirement states that after the test six months have to pass. That would have made him 17.

As a Boy Scout from the time he was 17 till he finished Boy Scouting at 18, he didn't attend any "an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity" (He did drive to Sea Scouting activities,by himself and with the permission from his Skipper. Sea Scouting comes under Venturing.)

It seems to me that you might be stirring up a storm in a tea-cup.

The rule from National seems to be a good one -So why fix it if it isn't broken?

Eamonn.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, donert, like GW says, it's just fine for a troop to put that kind of additional restriction on, eh? A lot of troops do, because sometimes kids drivin' other kids don't pay as much attention, or they don't want to get into things like "Billy can drive, he's responsible, but we don't think Johnny is there yet." I know some troops that won't let 18-year-olds who are still in high school drive on events.

 

No harm, no foul, perfectly OK legally, perfectly OK with da BSA, good communication with the parents. I'd say what you describe is a fine example of a well-run, thoughtful troop.

 

Beavah

 

[donert]

YOUTH MEMBER EXCEPTION: WHEN TRAVELING TO AND FROM AN AREA, REGIONAL, OR NATIONAL BOY SCOUT ACITIVTY OR ANY VENTURING EVENT UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF AN ADULT(AT LEAST 21 YEARS OF AGE) TOUR LEADER, A YOUTH MEMBER AT LEAST 16 YEARS OF AGE MAY BE A DRIVER, SUBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS:

 

-SIX MONTHS' DRIVING EXPERIENCE AS A LICIENCED DRIVER ( LEARNER'S PERMIT TIME DOES NOT COUNT AS EXPERIENCE).

-NO RECORD OF ACCIDENTS OR MOVING VIOLATIONS

-PARENTAL PERMISSION GRANTED TO THE LEADER, DRIVER, AND RIDERS.

(REFERENCE: TOURS AND EXPEDITIONS, NO. 33737)

 

 

What is this clause in ther for? These Scouts drive and ride together to school every day, they are seniors, 17 years old.

 

They have to go by the permission slips from the parents to the leaders for the drivers and the riders.

Can't they even drive to a troop meeting?

 

The only agreement I'm going to sign is a permission slip.

[Gold Winger]

The clause is in there because when they are travelling to Scouting events, they are covered by BSA insurance and BSA is concerned with the safey of the young people. Face it, young people (especially boys) are idiots when they get behnd the wheel of a car. I know that I was and we get stupider the more people that are in the car.

 

It's BSA rules and the troops rules. If you don't want to abide by them, your ethical obligation is to show your objection by leaving the troop and BSA.

 

I'm really sorry but you're not going to find any sympathy here. Especially from me because I don't think that anyone under 18 should be allowed to drive.

[donert]

I will ask our DE and SE their opinion.

 

The replies I've been geting don't seem to make much sense.

[Oak Tree]

We'll always tell you that asking your DE or SE will give you a better personal response than asking a self-selected group of strangers.

 

I'm not sure I understand your problem, though? You're upset that the troop won't let people under 18 drive? I have a bigger problem with the BSA rules that seem to suggest you can't drive to a troop meeting by yourself if you're 17. I can see why you might object to that nonsensical interpretation. What scenario are you upset about?

 

And why are you so focused on this item? It seems like a pretty minor point. Units, chartered organizations, Scout camps, pretty much every group is free to add restrictions to safety policy, and they often do. Of all the things your troop does, this is what's got you upset? Even after everyone tells you they can do it?

 

Are you sure there's not something more going on here? How are you getting along with the troop leadership otherwise?

[Beavah]

Yah, in answer to your question, da purpose of the youth member exception in the "old" version was to allow for da use of competent youth as relief drivers on long car rides, to give the adult drivers a break and keep things safe.

 

The wordin' change a few years back was to allow registered 20-year-old Venturing "youth" members to attend OA and Venturing Area/Regional events without puttin' a registered adult in each car. And for things like Jambo, where da number of adults allowed per contingent couldn't drive everybody, makin' it a bit silly for some council contingents.

 

Yah, sure, H&S tend to trip over themselves when writin' policy language . But da way to think about this is that minors driving generally aren't allowed, except when common sense would pretty clearly and unequivocally dictate otherwise. But if yeh want to read da BSA language verbatim, as Eamonn describes, your 17-year-old son is only permitted to drive to Area, Regional, or National events, eh? Not troop outings. Not council camporees. Only something like NOAC or Michigan International Camporee or Jambo. "Area event" means something hosted by one of da BSA's multi-state Area administration zones. "Regional event" means something hosted by a BSA administrative Region, etc.

 

Any unit can establish da meet-up spot and tell folks they're "on their own" for transportation to that point, eh? So for a troop meeting, we just say "7pm at the VFW" and parents can do whatever they want to get their lads there. Not on our dime, so to speak. Same with if yeh drop your kid off two days late for camp. G2SS only applies to unit organized transportation to an event.

 

As to signin' stuff, there's no obligation for you to sign anything, eh? And likewise, there's no obligation for the unit to allow your son to participate on any event, or even remain registered in da BSA. Be careful about playin' hardball.

 

I'm with Oak Tree. There's got to be somethin' more to this story. Signin' agreements to troop rules is pretty ordinary, the drivin' restriction is pretty ordinary. There ain't much inconvenience if your son can drive to da meet up point, leave his car and hop in with an adult driver for the outin'. Plus then yeh know he can't "sneak out for a nightcap" while he's on da trip.

 

What else is goin' on that's got yeh wound up?

 

Beavah