Do away with advancement?

[Eamonn]

Mark,

Maybe I'm living in cloud cuckoo land?

I'm very concerned about numbers / membership.

Scouting like most living things never stands still! It (As an organization) is either growing or it is dieing.

I'm sure that there are parts of the country where growth is just wonderful, I'm sure people will post this or send me a PM telling me so.

Sadly things are not wonderful in the District I'm in (Not that far from you!!)

The idea of "The Proud, The Few, The Boy Scouts" isn't all bad. I suppose there is a lot to be said about Quality over Quantity.

I do feel passionately that we (You, me and all the other Scouter's who serve.) Can do a lot of good and do a lot of good. My great hope is that in the years to come that we can really reach out and bring more and more youth into Scouting.

I'd really like to see more racial minorities and kids from poor areas along with kids from inner-cities become part of what we are and who we are.

It of course doesn't need saying that we can't serve the youth that we don't have.

Hand picking or selecting youth who someone deems as "Being worth it or worth our time"? Just doesn't seem like an option to me.

Some time back (A long time back) in this forum there was yet another very long thread about uniforms (NO!!! I'm not going there!) Somehow the question about "Who would you ask what the uniform should be ?" Was asked.

Would you ask the people who don't wear a uniform?

Or those who do wear it?

The argument was made that the people who don't wear it aren't going to wear it anyway!

I'm not sure who we ask about Advancement?

The Troops who understand that it is a method and use it along with the other methods?

The Troops that don't understand that it is a method and make it a aim?

The Scout who is doing his best and has a personal goal of earning the next rank?

Or the ex-Scout, who thinks it's all stuff and nonsense?

It's at times painfully clear that there is no quality control. One way or the other!! SM's and Committees who just give away everything or at the other extreme SM's and Committees who make it so darn hard that no one advances without meeting a lot of unwritten requirements.

As an organization, we seen that we had a problem with Cub Scouting.

As it happened I wasn't overjoyed or very optimistic about the "Race For Cub Scouts", but at least it seemed that someone was doing something.

I would really like to see a break down, by age of the Boy Scout membership totals for the past few years (5 or 10 years) So far, even at the Area Level I have not been able to get this information.

My guess is that we have very few 17 year old Boy Scouts, a few 16 year olds, a few more 15 year olds, a fair amount of 14 year olds and a lot of the 11 -13. (Nothing like hard numbers!!)

The $64,000 qustion is why?

Why are the older Scouts leaving?

The youth I talked with said that they didn't like advancement.

Of course maybe what they were really saying was that they didn't like the way it was presented?

Eamonn.

[Stosh]

This topic has been quite interesting so I'll toss in my 2-cents worth. I find that "advancement" is nothing more than the measure of a scout. The higher the rank, the more one can assume they will actually function at a certain level of development. I took over a troop recently and after extensive evaluation of where the handful of boys are functionally, I am finding some of my Life rank scouts can't tie the simplest of knots. On an outing they are useless. They don't function as scouts regardless of what their patch of rank or responsibility says. They cannot do the simplest of tasks, they cannot teach the next generation of scouts so they can not function as leaders and the troop flounders. If the boys don't function, the responsibility for success falls upon the adults. End of boy-led scouting. Without teaching requirements as fuctionality and only counting as score will eventually lead to a more adult led troop.

 

[Beavah]

Without Advancement, why would any Scout sit through tedious conversations with MB Counselors to help them develop a sense for personal management, or why it is fathers are important in a family? Or why some people feel the civic duty strongly enough that they willingly put on our country's uniform and risk their life? Or why the most important hard skill a Scout will learn in Scouting may be 1st aid? Why would any kid want to do that?

 

Yah, hmmmm....

 

I'm left wonderin' why Personal Management MB would be pursued through tedious conversations. Though I reckon nothin' can save Family Life from tedious conversations.

 

Seriously, I've never seen a kid develop a sense of honor and commitment from treading out merit badge signoffs. They start thinkin' of da service because it's cool to be the guy who helps and protects younger scouts in the field - the one who's strong and skilled and not afraid and stands for somethin'. And if our kids are pursuin' First Aid because it's an assignment to finish we really need to shut da program down and start over. Blood and guts are cool. Knowing what to do when the chips are down is awesome.

 

Kids don't crave badges, eh? They crave skill. Crave being important. Crave being treated like an adult because they know as much or more than adults. Crave adventure and video games because adventure puts them in hard, challenging places where they have to rely on their own skill.

 

Golly, yeh all have me startin' to think me colleague with da brogue is right and we should dump da method after all.

 

Beavah

 

[GernBlansten]

"Kids don't crave badges, eh? They crave skill. Crave being important. Crave being treated like an adult because they know as much or more than adults. Crave adventure and video games because adventure puts them in hard, challenging places where they have to rely on their own skill. "

 

Wow beav, I think you found a golden nugget. I see nothing in the current requirements for advancement that have that magic ingredient to make a scout crave it. Nothing ties all the stuff they learn into an adventurous journey.

[Lisabob]

I have gone my whole life without ever needing to use an axe for anything. Say what you will but that probably is true of a lot of us suburban or ex-urban or urban types. Just no need.

 

So it was with a *great* deal of pride this summer when a small group of tenderfoot & second class scouts took me through the procedures of creating an axe yard, maintaining safety with the tools one uses in an axe yard, and learning to wield a small axe. They knew how to do something that I didn't, and they were practically glowing as they instructed me (and did a pretty decent job too).

 

I think Beavah is right that kids this age crave skill, crave being able to do things rather than have things done for them, crave being treated as equals by older youth and by adults.

 

Some boys are motivated by ranks and patches too and nothing wrong with that. But I do think the larger matter is that they're motivated by what those ranks and patches stand for at the end of the day - at least, they will be if we do our jobs right and ensure that they're actually learning and developing the skills that are behind the advancements. Otherwise we've cheated them twice over - once when they "got" rather than "earned" the award without actually knowing/doing/showing the skill and again when we have reinforced the notion that achievement and for that matter, adult life, is all about the surface matter, checking off boxes, attaining patches, without any thought or concern for the deeper meaning. That's a wearying way to go through life, kind of sad really, and not what I hope for for "my" guys, at the least. Those guys who are in the program simply to "get" Eagle and out because that's what their parents want them to do and they've internalized that ethos along the way, well they and their parents are missing out on the bigger picture. Probably not much we can do about that in most cases! Parents will almost always have a stronger impact on a boy's outlook than we will.

[mk9750]

Beavah,

 

(Warning! Long post ahead!)

 

I am only one volunteer among more than a million. So my experience is certainly not empirical evidence. And it pains me to sound like I am bragging, so please try to overlook my vanity.

 

But in my experience as a MB Counselor for Personal Management, Family Life, Communications (which btw, is the required MB that has REALLY become lame!), and Citizen in Community and Nation, I have watched boys take the knowledge they garnered from both their own work, and long conversations with me and use it to positively impact both their own life and others.

 

As of May, our country is defended by an additional 1098 new 2nd Lieutenants, fresh graduates of West Point. One of those dedicated his life to serving our country, at least partly, because of the conversations, debates, and even arguments, he and I had while discussing constitutional rights while working on Nation.

 

Three separate former Scouts have either thanked me in person, or written me a note, telling me how valuable they found just one line that I emphasize while working on Family Life MB ("Marriage is less about finding the right partner than it is about being the right partner"). And, although I have not worked with anyone old enough to have children yet who had to complete the new requirement to discuss the importance of fathers, I have seen a number of boys who have appeared to consider this seriously during and after our discussion.

 

And just last month I had a former Scout hand write a letter telling me that he heard almost the exact same thing during his first real job orientation as he heard from me during our conversations working on Personal Management (1 - Make a plan for every dollar you have, and 2 - Get into the retirement program the very first day you can). It was he who called our MB sessions tedious in his letter. Yet he spent a page and a half thanking me for taking so much time helping him prepare for his adult financial life.

 

While reviewing this post to this point, it strikes me that there is often a big difference in the boys I counsel compared to what it appears many of the other folks on this forum counsel. I have yet to work on Personal Management with a boy younger than 15. 14 - 15 is the common age for our guys to start Family Life. We try to do a cycle of the citizenship badges so that 7th graders work on Community, 8th graders work on Nation, and 10th graders work on World. These are the grades in our school district that each of these topics is covered at school and my work as a MB Counselor augments the schoolwork. Communications tends to be left for last, right at the end of the push for Eagle. Probably because I give off signals that I think it is a lame MB. But in our Troop, we tend to have older guys working on these kinds of MBs. And they make Eagle much later than it seems many of other poster's kids make it. Our youngest Eagle in the last 14 years was just past his 17th birthday on his BoR. Because our guys seem to be older, I think they have a much deeper appreciation for what we discuss. Sure, that doesn't mean it's exciting for them. But they appreciate it more, I think.

 

Now please understand, I am not special. Sure, I know some people could counsel Personal Management, limit it to an hour, and sign off on another MB feeling that a cursory exposure to the (mostly) valuable information is good enough. And sure, maybe the 5 or so hours each guy spends with me are more than it needs to be. But I know in my heart that I add value. And many of the guys who admit they thought I was tough and tedious now believe I do, too. Without the advancement program, I wouldn't have any formal reason to have been an influence on these guys. Nor would a large percentage of other Scoutmasters, ASMs, and MB Counselors.

 

Did I change the world because of the Advancement Method? If I did, only by a minute amount. But if a million of us changed the world just a minute amount, think of the good we would have done.

 

Although your point about kids craving skill attainment and such is true, I disagree that most of the things we hope to teach Scouts would be pursued by them on their own. Sure, a couple guys who have had an interest in politics while they were teens might study the information in the citizenship badges, or the couple of guys who are destined to become Wildlife officers could well find a way to learn how to find evidence of 10 wild animals on their own. But a small percentage. However, I have come across a significantly large number of people who have told me they developed their interest in the career they are now in because of work on a MB in Scouting, including my wife, who was only a Girl Scout for a few years, yet during that time had a field trip to the local hospital where she encountered an x-ray machine. She is unabashed talking about how just a small period of her life as an adolescent affected her adult life so drastically.

 

Again, please excuse my vanity. I hate when I sound like that. But my point is that it can't be just me that is a valuable influence on teenagers' life. And if there are mnay others like me, and we are provided with this vehicle of advancement in order to positively affect young men's lifes, I just can't imagine wanting to discard it.

 

Mark

 

[Gold Winger]

"Why are the older Scouts leaving?"

 

Wow, that's complicated. In general, I think that it is because our suburban, middle-class society is failing our kids by doing everything for them.

 

No need for pick-up games because there are organized leagues. In organized leagues, the youth don't need to decide anything because the captain is only a figurehead and calls everything from the sideline. Don't get your college app filled out in time, Dad will take a day off work to fill it out and then pay the FedEx charges to get it there on time. Don't put laundry in the hamper, mom will find it and wash it anyway. Don't mow the lawn, no problem dad will get it.

 

I've had the joy of working (as in employed) with many teens and early 20's over the past decade. Few understand that even if the pay is horrible that they have a responsibility to do the job they signed on to do. Show up for work on time? Sometimes. I'll admit that I'm not one who gets to work 20 minutes early but I'm not chronicly 20 minutes late. Why is this? Quite often the parents have never made them do anything to completition and on top of that, tell them that the job doesn't matter because it doesn't pay well.

 

How does this relate to Scouting? In my son's troop and other troops that I work with, I see that Scouts don't want to take on responsibility. They want the job to get the patch so the can get rank and that's what their parents want. To actually do the job, nah.

 

So why do they drop out? Because there is nothing to do. They don't want to lead. They don't want to teach. Since they want to do neither of the above, they really don't want to go on campout with squirrely little guys.

 

In my tiny mind, the progression of a Scout should be 1) Learn to be a Scout for a couple of years, while holding patrol level positions like Patrol Scribe or Patrol QM in the latter years. Patrol Leader around 13 1/2 or 14 after he's learned what needs to happen with a patrol and is old enough to command the respect of the younger boys. Around 15 move up to a senior position like Troop Guide, Instructor, Troop Scribe. At 16, become an ASPL or even run for SPL.

 

Instead of this, what do we have? 12 year old PLs who cannot guide their patrol or plan anything because they don't even have to pack their own pack to go to school. 12 year old Instructors because no one else wants the job. The SPL is 14. The older boys just hang out marking time and waiting for Eagle to be handed to them.

 

Hey, the older boys can do high adventure stuff. Right? Yeah, sure but only if some adult arranges everything. I've sat in on meetings with older scouts where an ASM said, "What would you guys like to do?" and the response was "I dunno." Okay, take a week and think about it and come up with ideas and we'll talk about them no matter how outlandish they seem. A week later, it was still "I dunno." Not, "we'd like to go rafting" or "bungee jumping" or even "see exotic dancers." Just "I dunno."

 

Is it any wonder that they drop out after they get their eagle?

[GernBlansten]

You know GW, I think we agree on a lot more than we disagree on. My observations are identical.

[Gold Winger]

Uuuuummmmmm. . . .that was someone else using my name. Yeah, that's the ticket. . . someone stole my computer, typed that entry and then returned my computer. :-)

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."

 

You know for an old Greek guy, that Socrates was way on top of things 21rst Century.

 

its the succeeding generations job to disappoint the prior generation...

[Kudu]

GernBlansten writes:

 

Wow beav, I think you found a golden nugget. I see nothing in the current requirements for advancement that have that magic ingredient to make a scout crave it. Nothing ties all the stuff they learn into an adventurous journey.

 

Actually Baden-Powell's version of Scouting does exactly that: It ties all the stuff they learn for each Award into an adventurous journey undertaken without adults or older Scouts.

 

It is called a "Scout Journey" or a "Scout Expedition."

 

Imagine that!

 

Second Class:

 

Go on an eight-mile daytime journey with at least three other Tenderfoot Scouts. Your Patrol Leader will set your route, and a specific objective will be given. Make an oral report from notes to your Patrol Leader immediately upon your return. Your Scoutmaster must know your hiking route, and must approve your plan in advance. If additional Scouts are taking the test, each will report independently.

 

First Class:

 

The First Class Journey: Go on foot, with three other Scouts, on a 24-hour journey of at least 15 miles.

 

- Make all the necessary advance preparations, and organize the packing of food and gear.

- In the course of the journey, you must cook your own meals, at least one of which must include meat or a protein substitute.

- Find a campsite and camp for the night.

- You must carry out any instructions given by the examiner as to things to be observed on route.

- Make a log of your journey sufficient to show you have carried out those instructions, and submit it within one week of your return.

 

Scout Cord (Star):

 

Explorer Proficiency Badge: 1. Arrange and carry out an expedition for yourself and at least 2 other Scouts, of not less that 2 days and 1 night duration to a place you are not familiar with. All equipment to be carried in backpacks and to include food. Each backpack to weigh not more than 30 lbs.

 

Bushman's Cord (Life):

 

Venturer Proficiency Badge: 1. Complete an adventure journey as a member of a Patrol in which you shall play a leading part. The journey, which may be short in length, must include at least 5 incidents such as rescues from fire or heights, compass work, Signalling over distance. Water incidents to be included for Sea Scout Troops.

 

4. Make a journey of at least 20 miles. on foot or by boat, with not more than 2 other Scouts. Route must be one with which the Scout is not familiar and should, if possible, include stiff country. Sleep out, using only the gear carried in a rucksack. Maximum weight 31 lbs which must include food. The Examiner may set the candidate 1 or 2 tasks, which require a specific report but no general log of the journey is required.

 

Queen's Scout (Eagle):

 

Senior Explorer Proficiency Badge: 1. Pass or have the Hiker Proficiency Badge: (2. Take part in 3 hikes, during each of which gear is carried and you sleep out, distance of 2 hikes to be at least 10 miles each. The distance for the third hike to be not less than 30 miles, with 2 nights camping out. Detailed logs of very high standard to be handed in after each hike).

 

2. Take part in an expedition with not less and not more than 5 other Scouts. The expedition may be on foot, boat, or on horseback.

- The expedition must be planned to last at least 4 days, and at least 3 nights must be spent in tents. All necessary equipment and food must be taken and all meals prepared by members of the party.

- All Scouts in the party will take an equal part in the planning arrangements before and during the expedition, but it is not necessary that all participants should be under test.

- A detailed log of the expedition must be kept be each member of the party, having previously agreed between themselves a different emphasis for each log - eg. weather, geography, history, architecture, archaeology, botany, ornithology.

- The route and special log subjects must have the prior approval of the examiner.

- An expedition on foot will cover at least 50 miles in wild country. The 3 nights will be spent at different campsites.

- An expedition by water will cover at least 50 miles and the log will cover such points as the state of the river, conditions of banks, obstructions to navigation etc.

- An expedition on Horseback will cover at least 120 miles in wild country, camping at 3 different camp sites.

- An expedition, whether on foot or otherwise, must be a test of determination, courage, physical endurance and a high degree of co-operation among those taking part.

 

 

Kudu

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Maybe Socrates was right. Look where the Greeks are today.

[Eamonn]

Mark,

Your last post did get my little grey cells working.

Of course the Advancement Program, I went through was the one offered across the big pond!

Of course me not being as young as I used to be, that was some time back.

As a youth member I went "All the way" And did become a Queen's Scout. (Which you could only earn as a Venture Scout.)

We didn't have merit badges we had Proficiency Badges.

There were 4 classes of Proficiency Badges:

Interest: As a rule not that hard -All the Scout had to show was some degree of interest and a little know how.

Pursuit: Harder and you had to do stuff. Things like Pioneer Badge and Hiker were Pursuit Badges.

Service: These were really hard. Where maybe the Badge Examiner (Yes examiner!!) might go easy on an Interest Badge, when it came to a Service Badge there was the requirements and that was it. Service Badges covered:Fireman, First Aid, Lifesaver.

Then there were Instructor Badges where you had to learn how to instruct others in one of the Service Badges.

Proficiency Badges, were worn on the sleeve of the uniform. thankfully it was a long sleeved shirt. I had an arm full.

As I said it's been a long time. While I can remember some of the requirements of some of the badges. I don't think that there is one badge that I can remember everything that was required.

But I can remember all the Badge Examiners.

I can remember going to Mr Colbert's home to do the Librarian Badge. He was a kind older Gentleman a retired Justice of The Peace. He never married and spent a great deal of money on First Editions. He made tea and we ate biscuits (cookies)! I was 11 or 12 years old. I fell in love with this kind man. Over the years when I became a Leader, I'd pop in for tea and biscuits.

Bill Cook was the Pioneering Badge Examiner. Bill could talk the hind leg off a donkey. He was a retired Signals Officer who served in the Royal Navy, in submarines. Not only did we deal with Pioneering we also learned a lot of Morse Code.

John Tapping did Rock Climbing.

John Jordan did hiking and map making (He was tough!!)

The list could go on and on.

The point I'm trying to make is that I remember the people who invested their time in me. I'm thankful that they did.

But thirty odd years later. A lot of the skills are gone, the shirt with the badges went out a long time ago.

But the kindness of the people who served me lives on.

Eamonn.

 

[mk9750]

Eamonn,

 

Despite my pride that some of the guys with whom I worked have put their knowledge to work and have thanked me for my help, I think you are likely right that 30 years from now, few if any will remember that "a budget is a plan. you make a plan to meet a goal. You record the results of your plan so that you may analyze how you are doing trying to meet your goal and make adjustments along the way..." or any of the other 300 pearls of wisdom I dispense regularly.

 

I do hope that one or two of them will remember me fondly after I have started pusing up daisies. I wish I had thought about the idea of serving "tea and biscuits"!

 

But your post kind of makes part of the point I was making. Sure the stuff the guys learn sometimes gets forgotten. But it was the Advancement process that caused you to encounter and take wisdom for your Mr. Cook et al, right?

 

You and I go back a similiar distance on these forums. I have always enjoyed speaking with you here. Your passion for what you do in Scouting is something to which I aspire. And honestly, I am thrilled that you started the thread. It is intensely interesting, so much so that others have been compelled to make 57 comments. The fact is, I think it makes all of us consider how important Advancement is. We might come to different conclusions, but I have appreciated the opportunity to think about my position and consider yours.

 

Even better? It caused Kudo to post the requirments for Queens Scout! It was a real pleasure reading through those. So much so, I copied his post and sent it to our SPL with a not - so - gentle suggestion that as they start making plans for their annual planning meeting in the spring, they think about the posiblity of incorporating some of this into their plan! (Kudo, please accept my apoligies for copying your post!)

 

BTW, Eamonn, it still disappoints me that we couldn't find an opportunity to get together the last couple of years when I have driven Scouts out to Heritage. We'll be back there in 2009, and I'll probably still be offering my chauffer services. If so, I'll try to find a way to hook up with you!

 

Mark

 

 

[Eamonn]

Mark,

You might want to take a quick look at:

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs145007.pdf

The History of the Queen's Scout Award.

 

By the time I got around to doing it!! There was a lot more community Service involved.

I did my community service working with young kids at the Cheyne Centre for Spastic Children in Chelsea, London.

Strange how much you can learn about yourself while trying to help others!!

Sure I was one of them idiots who hiked the 267-mile Pennine Way. I'm not sure why?

I think just to prove to myself that I could do it!!

(No detailed reports - I think looking back if there had been it would have read, "Got up, it was raining, walked in the rain, cooked in the rain, Went to bed -Still raining, got up it was raining!!")

I still walk about five miles almost everyday.

OJ hates to hike or even take a long walk!!

I don't think this makes him any less of a Scout or any less of an Eagle Scout, to my way of thinking a good Scout has more to do with the Oath and Law than how far you hike.

Eamonn.