Do away with advancement?

[AvidSM]

Don't do away with advancement - just balance it out with the rest of the things you are trying to teach as scout.

 

We need advancement in scouting to recognize and celebrate what a boy has achieved. What we don't need is a troop that focuses on advancement for the sake of everything else. Blame poorly trained or zealous adults for the eagle mills, not the concept of advancement. A good program offers fun activities for the boys to do, which by their nature lead towards fulfilling requirements towards advancement.

 

 

 

[Venividi]

Advancement is like other measures can become more important than what is being measured. For example, year over year quarterly profit change is one useful measure of a healthy growing company. Tie compensation to it, and the measure gets managed as an outcome in and of itself, with less importance than healthy growth.

 

Advancement in scouts should be a natural outcome of program. But tie value to the measure (advancement), and it becomes all to easy for the measure to be what gets managed. And then the underlying qualities that the awards used to represent are no longer tightly coupled with the award.

 

 

[Venividi]

did a bad job on proof reading my previous post. This one will make more sense:

 

Advancement is like other measures that can become more important than what it is supposed to measure. For example, year over year quarterly profit growth is one useful measure of a healthy growing company. Tie compensation to it, and the measure gets managed as an outcome in and of itself, regardless of whether it is "healthy" growth.

 

Advancement in scouts should be a natural outcome of program. But tie undue value to the measure and it becomes all to easy for advancement, rather than growth in character, citizenship & fitness, to be what gets managed. And the result is that the underlying qualities that the awards used to represent are no longer tightly coupled with the award.

[mdutch]

I have to agree with a lot of what was said here.

(For a matter of perspective, I just turned 18 and did reach eagle at the last minute)

For me, scouts was about more than advancement. I took 2 years to reach 1st class, and slowly did life and eagle after that. Those two ranks pretty much just happened naturally. I did most of the merit badges at summer camp, and worked on a few back home for the rest.

I decided that advancement wasn't going to be my priority. I had much more fun trying to do a good job as SPL and an OA officer to have time to work much on advancement. After serving as SPL though, I was pressured by many to "finish up" my eagle. After all I was "so close", and had given so much into scouting. So I did. But to me, getting Eagle wasn't the purpose of being in scouting; it was to have fun.

I guess, more than anything, what drove home for me that some scouts were just in it for the rank advancement happened at summer camp one year. We were all sitting around the camp fire, talking. I brought up the possibility of having the older scouts go to a trek-based summer camp the following year, and doing a hike/canoeing program, rather (or in addition to) a traditional summer camp. However, from many of the scouts there I got asked "What merit badges will we be able to do" "Oh, we can't do merit badges! What's the point; I don't want to go then".

Oh, well. Guess to some scouts the only point will be advancement

[RangerT]

As a Crew Advisor I have teens who love earning awards and one teen who has been in the crew four years and hasn't earned anything. He goes to every event and meeting and is having fun but doesn't believe in personal recognition. I know advancement is not a method in Venturing but the majority have earned the basic awards, so it does serve a purpose. If there were no advancement I think BSA would have to beef up and restructure the program, esp. in boy scouts and cubs. But teens 14+ would not be too upset if it went away, of course the counterpoint would be, "But we have always done it this way based on Baden Powells program."

 

Besides, the supply division would lose too much revenue, lol, so don't expect National to change.

[Its Me]

 

Somewhere in the woodbadge and training forum is my post on my Powder Horn training experience. Powder horn is the training for venture crew leaders. From what I gather, Venturing is all about the outing. Advancement is a much lower priority. Youth led seemed even lower.

In venturing BSA has recognized that in order to complete with well developed church youth groups, they had to diminish the emphasis on advancement. Make just fun and they well come. Character development and adult association still occur but its less structured.

 

To be Fair venturing has its advancement program but I can't say that my daughter's venture crew is concerned with advancements.

 

If we were to draw a conclusion from this it could be that BSA recognizes that as the scout ages and parental control is replaced with personal independence the youth chooses to not seek Rank badges.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ASM915]

inspired

 

Just talked with my 21y/o Eagle ASM. Eamonn, he just read your post. he respectful disagrees. He feels that we need to find a way to inspire the Scouts of today, not just offer incentives if they advance. "Here's a Slushy, candy bar, a free camping trip." The incentives appear lame.

 

He stated he was inspired to become Eagle because I was one and he had heard some of the stories about my experiences. He joined at 15. He then wasn't thrilled about how his Troop was being run. This inspired him to push forward with Eagle advancement, to get POR and try to make changes. Once he got Eagle, he felt it would give him credibility with the Scouts, when he became ASM, and hopefully inspire them.

 

If they see a maintainable goal that they want to achieve, then they will be inspired to get there. But it has to be fun.

 

He also feels that since the late 80's and 90's, that the boys don't have the things present to inspire them, in society today, that we had from the 40's through the 70's. He feels that during that time frame, that most leaders had had military experience, new how to wear uniforms appropriately, and didn't let the Scouts slack off. He feels that starting in the 80's, most of the adult leadership were not vet's because the draft was gone. The adults placed less emphasize on how the uniform was worn, and that is why we are at the point that we are at today, blue jeans, down around the thighs if that high, shirts untucked, etc. Also they Scouts hardly ever see anyone in uniform other then the Police. The only uniforms visible in todays society are sports team uniforms.

 

He feels National has let Scouting down by forgetting why Scouting was started, to begin with. It was run by people, who usually had a military backgroun. The skills that were taught were survival skills that the military used. There was a draft, so if and when something happened, the Scouts knew that they would be serving, and that Scouting gave them the skills to survive and lead. Now days, National has bowed to the people that feel that the basic skills that we taught back in the 70's and before, are to militant, and don't belong in Scouting.

 

Dave states that everyone, including National, is wussing out. He feels that if the draft was still in affect, that Scouting would still have a strong

program. This coming from a 21 year old.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

[GernBlansten]

Do away with advancement, take away the lore and prestige of the Eagle Scout and you will make it very easy for alternative youth programs to snatch up the majority of scouts. Lets face it, the majority of youth stay in BSA because their parents want them to. And the parents want them to get Eagle.

[Gold Winger]

"Lets face it, the majority of youth stay in BSA because their parents want them to. And the parents want them to get Eagle."

 

Is that why we want them to be Scouts. I thought that they were supposed to be a Scout because THEY wanted to be Scouts. I guess I'm just silly.

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually Venturing does not have advancement and there are no ranks and if it isn't youth lead, then you don't have a Venturing Crew, you appear to have an older Co-ed Cub Pack, as a Boy Scout is youth lead as well.

 

I have to say I am surprised at the comments, Advancement is one of the 8 methods of scouting. So is uniforming, but there are plenty of people who wouldnt seem to stand for elimination of the uniform. Why the rush to throw Advancement under the bus? Many troops ursurp the Patrol Method, lets dump that as well. It seems as if because we don't want to or can't control adults we want to dramatically alter the program. Great life lesson, treat the symptom, don't touch the disease

[GernBlansten]

"Is that why we want them to be Scouts. I thought that they were supposed to be a Scout because THEY wanted to be Scouts. I guess I'm just silly. "

 

I wouldn't call you silly, that would un-scoutlike.

 

I think it is the reason that a lot of scouts are scouts. Because their parents want them to be scouts.

[Gold Winger]

There really aren't ranks in Boy Scouting either. They are just awards for jumping through a certain set of hoops.

 

 

[Eamonn]

I now have to admit to being in a bit of a muddle !!

I never really asked the groups I spoke with "Why? They thought working for Merit Badges and trying to move up in rank was just silly. Many said that they never really set or had any "Advancement Goals" and that advancement was something that they felt forced to do.

 

My reason for asking and meeting with these youth was/is that the District I'm in seems to be in a real membership slump. I have talked with a good many leaders and adult volunteers. All I heard and got from them was the same old same old excuses. They want to place blame on video games, soccer, TV, homework, school work. Stuff I've heard a lot over the past 30 years.

While I'm willing to agree that kids today do have a lot more choices than maybe I had when I was a Lad. I'll give them that maybe a lot (Not all.) Kids don't seem to have the commitment that it seemed kids of yesteryear had. I'm also willing to give them that the kids we serve are a lot busier than I know I was at their age.

Still, doing nothing and just accepting that we have a problem and doing is not a solution.

Having read what has been posted, I'd give my right arm (I'm left handed!!) to have some of you serve the Scouts in the District I'm in.

We have about 20 Troops.

The decline in Cub Scout membership is starting to show, as is the number of Packs that have folded. With no real recruitment going on. We have to look at retention as a way of not only surviving, but also providing a program that will hold the interests of the Scouts we have.

The methods of Scouting (All of them!) If applied correctly? Can and do work. Sadly none of the 20 Troops are able to say that they are applying or using the Methods.

When things "Were Good" Troops kinda knew that year after year a new batch of little Lads were going to cross over from the Pack and these little Lads would make up about 33% of the Troop membership, last years "crop" of little Lads would make up another 33%. This of course meant that about 66% of the Scouts in a Troop were under 13. The remaining group of over 13 year olds either were like OJ; who after the age of about 15 became a Troop Visitor, attending meetings only if he was free and had nothing else to do. Or when they reached about 15 they quit.

While of course I don't know the reason why every kid quit. From what I can see it seems that Troops were and are focusing the program that is offered on the younger Scouts. No real effort has been taken to meet the needs of the older Scouts.

Older Scouts were expected to work on Merit Badges and Eagle Scout rank, with little or no real effort to provide them with a program that was: Fun, Adventurous and of course the Scouts looked for the badges that were not really hard, so there was no real challenge.

No Troop in the District offers or has in the past 20+ years offered the older Scouts a High Adventure opportunity.

Just about every Troop attends the Council Summer Camp. They sign up for next year, same site, same week, same everything before they depart from this years summer camp. The Scouts have no say in where they will go, when they will go and the camp program hasn't really changed that much in the past 30 years since I was on staff.

Year one is great fun for the little Lads. Going home having earned a few of the less difficult badges. Watching these little guys at Troop COH's beam as they receive the fruits of their labors is a real joy.

Year two isn't that bad, they take on some of the more difficult badges!! Year three a lot of the badges seem a lot like school work and forth-year campers who are not attending as staff members are a rare find.

 

As a Jamboree Scoutmaster, I have had to tell some parents to go and lie down!! These parents hear that there will be 200 Merit Badges available. Some have gone as far as to ask that I prepare a sheet of what badge their son will do when!!

I of course inform them that this isn't going to happen!! I explain that from my point of view I'd sooner see the Scouts return home with the rockers that go around the Jambo patch, showing that they had participated in all the areas.

I explain how this "Rocker" thing works to the Scouts, in fact I remind them through the daily PLC and the SPL makes announcements reminding them.

Even though the Jamboree provides me with enough of these little patches for every Scout to receive a full set, I being a Green Meanie do check their books and only hand out the patches to the Scouts who have met the requirements. Sure near the end there is a mad rush to go and meet with the Chaplains. I have had one Scout who was happy to spend most of his time working on MB's that he could have done at home. That was his choice.

Most of the other Scouts are really happy to just take off after breakfast and follow whatever plan they have made for the day. (Sometimes with some help from me.) Or just take off and participate in whatever activity they happen to stumble across.

I enjoy hearing one group tell another group "Hey you gotta try the whatever, it's really cool!"

The Scouts who attend all say that they have had a great time. They have fun, they tend to form their own little groups and travel from activity to activity in these groups, they get to try new things, see new things. They are almost completely self-scheduled. Hanging out at the camp site is a no-no!!

Even the parents who visit see that their son is having a great time and so far not one parent has ever mentioned Merit Badges to me!!

A lot of the activities offered at the Jamboree, especially in the Action Areas are not that difficult to put on and require very little in the way of investment. Councils could use the Jamboree as a model for summer camps. In place of moving Scouts from class to class. Badge work could still be available, but maybe only the badges that can only be earned Outdoors or utilizing the facilities that can only be found at camp.

As for the "Mind Set?"

Seems to me that at present we sell " Do the requirement, because it's the requirement"

If we could move toward "Do what you have to do, so you can do what you want to do".

Things would be a little better.

By this I mean if a PLC decides that they want to do something? Say sailing. They need to learn the skills and safety requirements before they go out on the water and once out they can improve on these skills.

A big complaint I have heard is that Scouts spent too much time learning things or perfecting skills that they never use.

Troops who have Troop Meetings where the meeting is a Merit Badge class that the adults have decided to run with because they found a local expert, might sound great -To the adults.

When OJ was about 12 the SM of the Troop he was in found a guy from the navy who was an expert on Nuclear Science (I think it was Nuclear Energy at that time?) He booked the guy for 4 Troop meetings!! I was District Commish at the time so I just happened to visit the Troop. This guy was doing his thing!! I had no idea what he was talking about it was way over my head!! OJ had less of an idea than I did!!

Talking with the SM, he was so very proud that his boys were going to have a badge that most Scouts don't get.

OJ said it was boring!! He never liked science and to spend four full Troop meetings? What a waste.

Eamonn.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So Eamonn, what you are saying is that when adults take over the program and present what they like, such as the Nuclear Science guy or present a program based on what they perceive the youth want, such as Advancement, they short circuit the program. As a youth lead organization scouts sholdnt have boring meetings as they are the ones who planned, ran and evaluated the meetings. That way the meetings are fun and they learn what works and what doesnt.

 

I am not sure it's time to eliminate Advancement, but to eliminate leaders who don't follow the program. Then again if we did that, I am not sure their would be enough adults left to do much of anything. It is a puzzlement

[gwd-scouter]

--If we could move toward "Do what you have to do, so you can do what you want to do".

 

I really like that statement. I like to tell our parents and new guys joining the Troop, that advancement is not the goal but rather a by product of a well-planned year-round program. At least, that's what we've been working toward for the past few years and I am seeing the results of our progress.

 

We are just finishing up a fantastic year and looking through the advancement records I noticed that almost all of our Scouts advanced a rank from this time last year. I can't remember having heard anytime this year a Scout asking me "what to I have to do to get to ___ rank," a question I heard over and over just a couple of years ago. Just a natural result of their planning and execution of a great program this past year.