How many parents do we need?

[Gold Winger]

Why do we need so much parental involvement in youth activities today?

 

I don't remember much from my Cub Scout days but I know that we only had a Den Mother, no Assistant DM. I'm sure that there were adults behind the scenes but they didn't have enough of an impact to make me remember them.

 

In youth baseball, there were a couple dads who were coaches and that was it. I don't remember a mom bringing cupcakes or hot dogs for the games. In fact it was more like "Leave it to Beaver." The kids would play and Dad would ask "How was the game." No tailgating or parents yelling at the umpires.

 

When I started umpiring in the early 80s, it was still much like that. Few parents in attendance. The coaches and a couple more who had volunteered to drive.

 

I was involved in my church's youth group for many years, we only had two parents involved. That was it. We planned our own activities and fund raising. The adults helped with things like signatures on documents.

 

I was an altarboy. The head altar boy worked for the priest and he ran the program. It was his job to see to it that the robes were cleaned, to make the schedule, recruit new altar boys. My son was an altar boy and there were three parents in charge of the program. There was a nominal youth leader but he had no responsibilities.

 

I was in a slew of activities in high school. In drama club we had a teacher who did the choreography and another who was the overall advisor but we did everything else. Fund raising, set design, costume design, lighting, sound.. . . Occassionaly, we'd lassoo a parent to help with something like sewing a fancy dress. I stopped by a play rehersal at the high school recently and there were more adults than kids. The adults were painting the sets, running the wardrobe area, doing make-up, running lights and sounds. All the kids had to do was open and close the curtain and walk out on stage and say their lines.

 

I wasn't a boy scout but I have many friends who were. Most, if not all, say that they didn't have the level of parental involvement that we have today. They'd go camping with the SM and an ASM and that was it. Now we have "adult patrols" tagging along.

 

Is all of this involvement a good thing? Are we crippling our kids, boys and girls, by taking over their activities in our efforts to "make them better"?

[hotdesk]

My last two seasons as a Little League Umpire I have seen that parents are trying to live through their kids. If the kid doesn't enjoy playing baseball that's okay, they'll stay, because Dad played. Next time your at a game see how the coach coaches. Chances are that it'll be an aggressive, direct style. See what things the parents complain about.

 

My experience as a Membership Coordinator and New Scout Assistant Scoutmaster has shown me that those scouts whose parents become active will remain in the troop longer.

 

I feel that this is because of the number of activities teens are active in today. The parents are more likely to push their kids toward activities that they can do together because they don't have a lot of time already to do things.

 

As far as adult participation goes I don't see it as a bad thing in scouting. There are a number of things that we have that can be delegated to parents. Right now our trop has adults to fill; Committee Chairman, Scoutmaster, Treasurer, Advancement, Activities, Equipment, Secretary, Life to Eagle Coordinator, Website, Newsletter, 5 extra Committee Members who serve as time allows, Fundraisers (2), New Scout Assistant Scoutmaster, an Advancement Assistant who encourages those scouts who are stuck on a rank to advance, High Adventure Assistant Scoutmaster, Patrol Advisors (3), and Parents that help with Membership and coordinating our Spaghetti Dinner and Silent Auction. As long as these parents can be taught that it is a boy led program and they are their to help the scout who may be assigned to a similar position then we should be okay.

 

As far as parent involvement in sports I don't know if it is a good thing. The simple reason is because of how aggressive they usually become.

[Gold Winger]

" See what things the parents complain about."

 

I retired from umpiring a few years ago. What I rember is that parents refused to believ that their Johnny couldn't hit the strike zone. Seems that since the pitcher is the glory spot, the most aggressive parents would be the parents of the pitchers.

 

You mention Patrol Advisors. I understand the concept but in my experience they cause more problems than anyone. Usually, the PA is the parent of one of the New Scouts and refused to let go of the idea of being a den leader. Troop Guides and Instructors should be doing the job of "Patrol Advisor."

 

In my opinion, the PA should sit in the back of the patrol meeting and keep quiet most of the time. Maybe he should say things like, "Hey guys, how are you going to get there? Do you know who to ask?" All too often the PA winds up arranging everything and even does a de facto appointment of the PL (Johnny needs a leadership position, all in favor of him being PL say "Aye." )

[anarchist]

how many parents?

 

As many as we can lay hands upon!

As long as they get the training and "buy in to" our program.

 

We are a medium sized very active troop. 40-55 boys

 

currently our troop does:

- a week at summer camp (30-40 boys including the New Scouts/brown sea program)

- a "week" at high adventure camp (philmont/seabase, etc.)

- a week long 100+ mile canoe adventure

-several weekend canoe trips

-a white water raft trip

-two real cave crawling trips (courtesy of our grotto member dad)

-three district camporees

-three patrol only camping weekends (times 4/5 patrols)

- two webelos training camps ("get to know us" events)

-numerous eagle projects

-on average 7-8 community service projects annually

-6 troop car/truck campouts

-two long distance hike camps

-two fund raisers

and I am sure I am missing somethings...

 

Just one or two adults...simply could not handle it all...and keep a job and family together!

A poor SM/ASM would be worked to death just attending these things let alone working with the scouts to deliver a good program...so our parents all pitch in and help...most wear ASM/Committee patches and have been through district and council traning.

 

so I guess thats a good reason as any for adult help....

 

Anarchist

[hotdesk]

The position of Patrol Advisor, as I view it, is important. The Patrol Leader needs an advisor just like the Senior Patrol Leader has in the Scoutmaster. The patrol needs a watchful eye just like the New Scout Patrol has from the Troop Guide.

 

However, it is important that the position be performed correctly. The Patrol Advisor is not there to make decisions or appointments. They are not there to contradict any decisions, if they are scout appropriate, made the Patrol Leader. They are simply there to help the Patrol Leader keep the patrol on track, back up the decisions of the Patrol Leader, and ensure that leadership training is delivered to the Patrol Leader through the Senior Patrol Leader and Scoutmaster.

 

The Patrol Advisor should know what the Patrol Leader Council planned for each troop meeting. The Patrol Leader should inform the Patrol Advisor of the goal for each patrol meeting. They should then make sure that the goal is actually carried out and, if it isn't, let the Patrol Leader know that at the end of the meeting. They are there to make sure that once the patrol feels menu planning is completed that it actually is. They should attend grocery shopping trips with the patrol and as the patrol shops make sure that they get everything they need and that they don't overspend. The job should be simple. If possible it should be filled.

[Jeffrey H]

When I was a Boy Scout in the early to late-70's, my Dad was an ASM and SM. I don't remember that much parental involvement with the Troop, at least what I could see. On a campout, we might have one or two Dads that would come along with the Scoutmaster but that was it.

 

Why so many parent today? It might be (this is a guess) that there have been too many stories of "abuse" in the recent past and parents are being cautious. Even with the BSA's Youth Protection and two-deep policy, they are still being cautious.

[CalicoPenn]

What in the Sam Hill is a "Patrol Advisor"???? The Patrol Leaders have an advisor - his title is Senior Patrol Leader. Part of the SPL's job is to be checking in with his (yes - HIS) Patrol Leaders and making sure they get access to the tools they need to be a successful Patrol Leader. Another advisor for the Patrol Leaders is the Scoutmaster and HIS Assistant Scoutmasters. Patrol Leaders have another advisor to go to for help - I call them "Mom and Dad". Yep - when I was a Patrol Leader and we planned a Patrol outing (campout, hike, etc.) I looked to good ole Mom and Dad to help me take care of the logisitics of getting us from point A to point B, getting us to the grocery store for food shopping, etc. All of the Patrol Leaders in my units have done the same. A unit that has Patrol Advisors has put way to much adult thought into things (in my opinion).

 

I popped Patrol Advisor into a google search and pretty much all of the Troops I found that listed Patrol Advisors had enough Adult positions filled to run a medium to large District! It seems to me these units are creating positions just to give things to people to do. One unit had 11 ASM's and 32 (32!!!) committee members - not just people in specific jobs, but 11 committee members at large - and in a lot of the specific positions, they had co-leaders: co-advancement chairs, and co-activity chairs and co-equipment chairs. Most had a newsletter editor (Huh??? - My troop had a Newsletter Editor - we called him SCRIBE). According to this Troops website, they have 42 boys in the unit - that's right - 42. So they have 44 Adult Leaders (32 Committee Members, 11 ASM's and 1 Scoutmaster (and I'm shocked they don't have a "Co-Scoutmaster")) and 42 Boys - thats a more than 1 to 1 ratio.

 

I'll be blunt (and risk the wrath of Beavah as I don't "know the situation in those units") but those aren't Boy Scout Troops - those are Cub Scout Packs - The Sequel!! You know those discussions lately about ManScouts? These are AdultTroops.

 

GW - I think there can be a thing as too much parent participation, or at the very least, poorly managed parent participation. I look at what Anarchist's unit does and I can see that it takes quite a bit of parent participation - but it doesn't need to lead to some behemoth of an adult committee and of adult program leaders. My unit when I was a Scout did an awful lot of activities every year with about 30 to 40 boys, just like Anarchists - we had plenty of parents participate - but we only had one Scoutmaster, 2 Assistant Scoutmasters, and a committee of 6 people. When they needed parents to chip in, they knew how to pick up the phone and ask for help.

 

If your unit is making up jobs, handing out "co-position" jobs, and designating ASM's as "Patrol Advisors", its time to take a long, hard look at your unit and it's real needs.

 

CalicoPenn

[OldGreyEagle]

Way long ago in the suburbs of Chicago I was in Troop 65 sponsored by Holy Ghost Church in Wood Dale. We had a very active and agressive high adventure minded scoutmaster that had such an exciting program that the number of scouts in the Troop was capped at 65, as a token to our Troop number. To be a member of the Troop not only did the scout have to be active, I forget the parameters, I can tell you I met them and more, at least one parent of the scout had to be active as either an asst scoutmaster or a committee member. We had a waiting list of kids who wanted in the troop so the rules were followed. Parents were active and a dynamite program ensued. As a scout in the late 60's I went to the Grand Canyon and Glacier National Park. The Troop also bicycled from Chicago to FLorida one year, I was in COllege and couldnt make the trip. Parents/Volunteers are always needed. How and what they do will be varied but they are needed.

[hotdesk]

In our troop we have 3 active Assistant Scoutmasters. Each is assigned to a patrol to also serve as its Patrol Advisor. This is no different than having an Assistant Scoutmaster assigned to the High Adventure Patrol or New Scout Patrol. They serve exactly the same way.

 

Our Newsletter Editor helps the Scribe and Historian produce a newsletter. We have the core positions of the Troop Committee delegated (CC, SM, Treasurer, Advancement Coordinator, Activities, Equipment, Secretary, Life to Eagle, Website, and Newsletter) who help the scouts that are also assigned to similar positions (SPL, ASPL, Scribe, Quartermaster, and Historian)

 

We have 3 Assistant Scoutmasters that are active and are appointed to a patrol to serve as Patrol Advisor and also help the Scoutmaster advice and guide the SPL, ASPL, and TG.

 

Our at large committee members are adults who; 2 served as ASM, 1 served as CC, and the 1 served as Advancement Coord. They are adults who have spent time with the troop and wish to remain somewhat involved in the program, but cannot spend the time they used to. These parents help with Board of Reviews and attend the occasional committee meetings.

 

We have parents who help with Membership (which used to be assigned the New Scout Assistant Scoutmaster). We have a few the help carry out our Spaghetti Dinner and Pancake Breakfast (Silent Auction Coordinator, Publicity, Ticket Sales, and Kitchen Coordinator).

 

Each adult that we recruit is given a specific program or administrative responsiblity. If they are suppose to be working with a scout they are reminded of that and are doing a good job.

 

As I mentioned before my experience as an adult leader who has worked with the new scouts shows that scouts who have parents that become involved will stay in the program. They'll probably stay involved even if they don't attend summer camp. The key to retainment is getting parent involvement. This is something that they can spend time together doing and sharing. Having time to do things together is decreasing each and every year because of structured schedules we expect kids to have.

 

However, parents need to know what there role in the troop will be and how the Troop Committee and Scoutmaster expects it to be carried out. If they want to serve as an Officer of the Troop Committe, the Coordinator of a Fundraiser, or an Assistant Scoutmaster let them know that they should be trained. At least push New Leaders, Fast Start, Youth Protection, and Troop Committee Challenge (in our troop all ASMs are trained with Troop Committee Challenge training as well).

 

 

[hotdesk]

Let me answer Gold Winger's question with something that he stated in a pervious topic regarding fundraising;

 

"""Boys cannot be expected to anything other than horse around at the PLC while the SM plans the activities. They shouldn't have to keep track of their accomplishments or know where they stand for advancement, they just don't have the brainpower even though they are taking calculus in the 9th grade."""

 

Now if that is true then the answer to why we have so many adults should be apparent. Why place all the planning and tracking advancement onto just a few people? Why risk quickly draining these volunteers when you could have specific program and administrative responsiblities identified and then assign each one to a different adult? Have someone to coordinate BOR, have someone to enter information into TroopMaster (or your selected program), and a few serving as Patrol Advisors, have another incharge of buying equipment, and a different person in charge of mainting equipment, and so on....

 

Actually scout's can plan on their own and identify what they want. Trust them to do this. Use the adults that your training tells you is okay. Remember that the Committee Handbook let's us know that it is okay to recruit extra adults to help complete responsiblities of other adults (ie: The Committee Handbook lists the newsletter responsiblity as part of the Secretary's duties. Logic would tell us that if we have extra adults this is something that can be delegated outwards. The Senior Patrol Leader handbook and Scoutmaster Handbook does not mention the Newsletter as part of the Scribe's responsiblities).

[Venividi]

Compare this thread with a number of other threads that tell us that a scout can never fail - that if he doesn't satisfactorily fulfill the responsibilities of his position, it is due to the adults not assisting him. If he doesn't know scouting skills, it is because of adults- and don't even suggest that a SM spend more than 15 - 20 minutes at a SM conference to verify that a scout knows scouting skills - a howl of protest will result. Even if a scout chooses not to show up to meetings, it is an adult's fault.

As the trend is to move responsibility off of the shoulders of the scouts and placing it on the adults, more total time is required of adults.

[Gunny2862]

Enough so that the SM doesn't have to worry before every outing that requires transportation if he'll have to deny some Scouts the opportunity to go because there's not enough seatbelt's available from the adults who "committed" to go.

 

Enough that the SM isn't the only "Trained" adult on an outing.

 

Enough that the SM can spend an off weekend with his own son where Scouting isn't directly mentioned, or cut short to do something that HAS to be done and no one else will choose to do it. There really needs to be some kind of acknowledgment for the SM's children! They get some good things and some bad things from the experience that no other Scouts have to put up with.

 

Enough that the SM can focus on working with the boys and not on the other functions necessary to have the Troop.

 

And as previously alluded to; because there ARE predators out there who ruin it for those of us who are trying to do a good thing for our son's, their friends, and society as a whole.

[emb021]

"Why do we need so much parental involvement in youth activities today?"

 

My personal experience as a kid is similiar to GW's.

 

What I see today appears to be caused by two things:

 

* some parents seem to be reliving their childhood thru their kids, usually to the detriment of their kids.

 

* some parents, prehaps because their own parents weren't as active in their childhood, seem to be over compensating with their own kids.

 

Too many parents aren't willing to let their kids be kids, to step back and let their kids have fun, and do what they (the kids) want to do. I think too often parents impose what they want (for whatever reason) over what their kids want. (ex: the parents that push their kids into sports because of some mythical quest for a sports scholarship/career, instead of letting their kid play because they enjoy it, or letting them drop it because they don't enjoy it)

 

[Its Me]

 

As a generalization from my youth. Kids whose parents were involved in their sports and activities seemed more successful.

 

Those kids whose parents showed up for little games played better. Kids whose parents went to watch them in the marching band at half time went to better colleges. Kids whose parents were involved in their lives seemed to get into less trouble. I don't see an inconsistency in a program that aims for good character, uses advancement and adults association as two pillar of its program and parents being involved.

 

The child's parent is his principle teacher. All others are just specialist to one degree or another.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hotdesk]

I was in Boy Scouts from 5th until 12th grade as a scout (I'm now only 20). My dad became the Scoutmaster when I was in 8th grade.

 

My experience in scouting drastically changed. I enjoyed the opportunities that I shared with my dad inregards to scouting. My dad really enjoyed the summer water activities that included canoeing and river rafting. After he became Scoutmaster (after not being involved as an Adult Leader) these activities became more fun for me.

 

The first three years in scouting were tough. I didn't enjoy them and felt like quitting. Having my dad get involved was a way of spending time with him. Point blank: I enjoyed him being in scouts.

 

HOWEVER, there were many activities, events, and projects that I helped him with that I really didn't want to. The time that I spent in Scouting drastically increased because of his role in scouting. He was expected to attend Patrol Leader Council meetings, all troop meetings, Troop Committee Meetings, Roundtables, and supplemental adult leadership training.

 

While he was Scoutmaster I served as Senior Patrol Leader (twice), Jr. Assistant Scoutmaster, and High Adventure Patrol Leader. I felt pressured into serving in these positions and doing my absolute best in these positions since my dad was Scoutmaster.

 

I would encourage parents to get involved in their son's scouting experience. It's a time to watch the sunrise together, to splash water at each other while rafting, to meet each other's friends, to let go of the teen's attitude that their parents are embrassing.

 

My dad died last year when I was 18. I am happy that he decided to do scouting with me and with the troop. He shared many experiences with us that I wouldn't have had otherwise. He was always looking for ways to connect with the scouts. I remember the times that he played two hand touch football with us, or the time that we spent Sunday morning simply floating down the Wisconsin River with our canoes, and much more.

 

I'll admit that having him serve as Scoutmaster was tough in some aspects at some points, however it was the best thing that we did together and shared.