Bad Example Eagle Scouts

[Beavah]

 

In da original thread, OneHour writes about a 16 year old Eagle Scout who is a bit of a goof and a bully.

 

This is an eagle scout, the epitome of the honor that I have been preaching and selling.... I have to beg your pardon, but this is a repeating offender and an eagle scout... a repeating pattern of disrespect and [poor behavior]. My love and respect for scouting and its values are what I would like to pass on to my boys and the scouts. I would like to think that the Eagle Scout rank is still worth the values that it is representing! If I am wrong let me know and I will stop selling scouting!

 

OneHour's "not holding back" aside , I'm sure we've all seen a few Eagles that might fit the description, eh? Kids where maybe we ran through the motions of advancement but perhaps didn't really hit the goals. Kids who maybe dilute the value of the rank for others.

 

My question to da group is "Why?" In these cases, where did we blow it? What should have been done differently?

 

Was it not emphasizing Scout Spirit for rank? Passin' kids for just holding a position rather than performing it well?

 

What does da group think?

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

It all comes down to every parent thinking that their kid is special. But if everyone is special, no one is special.

 

In olden days, the handbook said that the Scoutmaster will contact your teachers, pastor and parents to see if you had Scout Spirit. Can you imagine that happening today?

 

I've had parents tell me that their son's suspension from school for theft shouldn't have any impact on advancement because it happened outside of Scouting.

 

Too often we just advance kids because it is the easy thing to do. The SM signs off on Scout Spirit because he is afraid to not do so. The BOR has nothing to go on to prevent advancement. So the kid becomes Eagle.

 

Not long ago, I found something on a Michigan council's website that explained that National holds that if a Scout doesn't do his job, the BOR can withhold advancement. I wish this decision was more widely publicized.

 

[Oak Tree]

Gold Winger - unfortunately National has explicitly publicized the opposite position. Many on the forum agree with you and wish for a different decision from National.

 

Beavah, I guess there are two directions I could go with your question.

 

First - how did they slip through our filter? The only explicit filter for this is the Scout spirit requirement. A Scoutmaster could indeed refuse to sign this. I've seen it done, and it typically isn't pretty. So I agree that a Scoutmaster normally finds it easiest just to sign off. But for certain situations, it may be the best thing to do. It can really set up an adversarial relationship, though.

 

An implicit filter we have is in the way we hold the boys to certain standards throughout. By making it clear that we expect certain behaviors, we can essentially make it no fun for boys who insist on misbehaving. They'll eventually leave.

 

The second question might be - how could we be teaching the boys better? I think it's difficult to get Scouts to change their overall behavior pattern, especially given the amount of time we have with them. We do have some power, and there are certainly boys who do better because they know someone believes in them and believes that they are better than they're sometimes showing. But it's not easy.

 

So a Scoutmaster has three inter-related knobs -

1. Scout spirit requirement

2. Ongoing behavior correction

3. All other instruction and examples

 

I think you can use all three. In my experience with just one troop, I see knob number two as the most effective. The goof-offs, the disruptors, the egomaniacs, they all get tired of not being allowed to have free rein.

[Gold Winger]

I offer http://www.cvc-bsa.org/advancement/bsAdvancementFAQ.html#posResp

 

"The decision also said, 'The issue of whether their service is satisfactory is resolved at the local board of review for that rank. Therefore, a boy who was in the position of Scribe for six months from Life to Eagle had fulfilled that requirement. That does not necessarily mean that he will pass his board of review, because if his service was not satisfactory, he could be turned down at the board of review.' "

 

As someone once said on this forum, I'll take what a council says on their web site over what anyone else has to say.(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[Venividi]

I will offer some possible (probable?) contributing factors:

 

Unit adults that want to see their scouts succeed, as measured by advancement (personal experience is that adults are more interested in seeing boys advance, while boys, once they reach a level of maturity, are more interested in fun, challenging experiences than in rank advancement).

 

Inexperienced leaders that have not yet learned the value of a man to man talk with a scout, and telling him that he is not yet ready for the next rank. (I was guilty of approving rank advancement for a couple of scouts that didn't live up to a reasonable expectation of scout spirit. Even had a more experienced mentor that told me it was expected).

 

Unit leaders/committee members/parents that have not discussed expectations, visions, etc.

 

Troop culture where scouts do not hold other scouts accountable for their actions, but rather are of the belief that discipline is not their responsibility, but rather, is the responsibility of adults.

 

I am sure there are others.

 

 

[Gonzo1]

Someone posted here cometime ago that BOR's do not *withold* advancement, but rather decide that *advancement hasn't been earned - yet*

 

Accordingly, I think it's OK if a scout is delayed in advancement as long as he knows why, and what to do about it to correct the deficiency.

 

[Lisabob]

Although I'm not in CVC from whom GW quoted, I am very nearby and I can tell you that their interpretation has been a somewhat contentious one. I'm not saying right or wrong, merely contentious.

 

As to where things go wrong:

 

1) In my observation, it comes back to the SM not taking those SM conferences seriously enough, all the way through the ranks. We have a few scouts who have been recommended for their next rank where I've really had to scratch my head and wonder how in the world they got their scout spirit sign off from the SM, in light of behavior issues.

 

2) In my observation, other scouts pay close attention. Closer than we might want. "If it is ok for Joe over there to be a total jerk for years and still make Star/Life/Eagle, why should I work so hard at living up to the Scout Law and Oath?" This is what I heard, almost verbatim, from a scout who recently lost his cool and decked another (younger, and at the time, really obnoxious) scout.

 

3) In my observation, although it goes against BOR policy and I realize this full well, I wish we could get more formal feedback from the scouts in a fellow's patrol when that fellow is up for advancement. Of course this would have to be tempered to avoid abuse, but in most cases, those other fellows are pretty blunt about what they see and sometimes that's needed.

 

4) Adults have to set clear expectations for behavior and then they have to be consistent about enforcing them. Senior scouts and those in leadership need to "buy in" to those expectations, and sure, have a hand in shaping them to some extent. Adults need to help senior scouts learn how to convey those expectations to the rest of the group too, instead of leaving them on their own and hoping they "get it," but then expressing dismay when some of them inevitably do not.

[Venividi]

Lisabob,

 

I think that sitting across from a scout, and wanting to encourage a scout to do better, SM's, especially new SM's, have a propensity to go along and do as you said. I would like to supplement your post by reminding all that one of the purposes of a BOR is to provide feedback to the SM. When BOR's notice scouts coming to them that cause such head scratching, that is a sign for adults to get together for a discussion to share expectations; to let the SM know that the BOR and committee really do support meaningful expectations of scout spirit, and request some changes.

When the majority of feedback to the SM is from parents that are upset that their son was told that his scout spirit needed improvement, such feedback from the BOR would be wonderful.

 

venividi

[mk9750]

Great response, Lisa!

 

We have had two boys in our Troop with whom we have these same kinds of issues. One boy has completed all his tangible requirements for Eagle. However, his participation and his effort in his Position of Responsibility have been VERY questionable. As we tried to come up with how the Scoutmaster could deal with this at the SM Conference, the core adult leadership all concluded we did a really poor job of making sure this Scout helped develop, understood, and followed through on the expectations for his position. In this case, at his SM Conference and BoR for Life, expectations were described. We did very little to include this young man in the development. We did what we often complain our youth leaders do - The nuclear bomb button method. We announced the expectations to this Scout, and then did practically nothing to make sure he bought in, did nothing to monitor his progress, and did nothing along the way to help him make corrections as he got himself off course. Kind of like pushing the button for the nuclear bomb and waiting to see what happens. When he approached Eagle, we still had the same problems with the Scout we had at Life. However, we had no more time to allow him to get things right. The SM signed him off, and the BoR will likely do the same. This could be my saddest time in Scouting, mostly because I feel we failed this guy. That is not to say that he doesn't share some responsibility, too. At 17, he's old enough to interpret the messages he was given while finishing Life rank and make his adjustments, and he didn't. But we did a poor job, and I believe, had we done better, this young man would have actually met the Goals of Scouting.

 

So, now we are faced with a Scout who is very similar to the guy above, and is ready for his SM conference and BoR for Life. His issues are more Scout Spirit related, but we have the same situation. At a more informal SM conference during a campout, the SM and this boy discussed that his Scout Spirit was not acceptable, and that a number of expectations still need to be met before the SM would sign this off for Life. The boy complained that he was being held to a different standard than others before him, and even though the Scout above's issue was a Position of Responsibility, and his was Scout Spirit, the same slack the first got should be extended to him. Luckily, we have the time to fix our mistake with this guy. So he will most likely be getting a pass at Life. But along with that will come a written narrative of the expectations he will need to demonstrate in order for all of us to recognize that his Scout Spirit is where we believe an Eagle Scout's should be.

 

In the 12 year history of the Troop since I have been involved, we've never had these kinds of issues. The older guys always seemed to be able to lead by example and the younger guys modeled the type of behavior and attitude that Scouting has a right to expect from its members. Somewhere along the line, we adults allowed ourselves to go on autopilot and just assume this would continue forever. We've blundered tremendously. Now we are going to have to fix it. In doing so, I suspect we might have a couple of guys who will end up with an Eagle badge on their chest but not one in their heart. I feel terrible about that. I feel bad we did not meet the Aims with a couple of guys, and I feel bad because I can't shake this belief that I have a responsibility to protect the integrity of the rank of Eagle Scout.

 

But over the next year or so, we have a great opportunity to fix things. We have four guys who are likely going to get to Eagle in the next year or so. Two are no problem, and the other two I'm not proud to say that they will get there too, but they likely will. After that, we have a big gap in our membership. We can start with the younger guys now working with them to develop expectations and methods to monitor and redirect them if needed. I think we will get back to the high expectations we had always had until recently.

 

Mark

 

[Eagledad]

>>Adults have to set clear expectations for behavior and then they have to be consistent about enforcing them. Senior scouts and those in leadership need to "buy in" to those expectations, and sure, have a hand in shaping them to some extent. Adults need to help senior scouts learn how to convey those expectations to the rest of the group too, instead of leaving them on their own and hoping they "get it," but then expressing dismay when some of them inevitably do not.

[Joni4TA]

I have issues with the way it appears some boys get waved on through rank, POR's, etc. I have been involved in a couple different handfuls of Troops, where there will be a Scout or two (or three) that's been pushed through to Eagle by the time he's 14 or 15 yet he retains almost nothing, can't teach any of the lower-ranking Scouts a darn thing, and acts like a bufoon at nearly every Troop function (if he even shows up after pinning on that Eagle rank).

 

I've see where the SPL or SM assigns POR's and then there's no follow up or holding that Scout accountable for his responsibilities, not during his tenure, and not ever at a SMC or BOR. It IS upsetting!

 

As far as what should have been done differently? There are many things that should have been done differently from the beginning. Some Troops just don't have the proper organization set up nor the support to manage all aspects of Scouting and aren't run in any kind of order. Others Troops are simply lacking the Adult knowledge and training to run effectively. And then you have yet others where it's more like a 3rd Year Webelos program, not boy-led, boy-run at all, and POR's, Merit Badges and Rank are just handed out like they are necessary sustenance or something.

 

I agree with GW and the "Hey my kid is special" mentality. It seems like many folks these days want their kids to be involved in something good, and want to see "results" from the kids' involvement, but don't seem to require their children put forth too much effort to get those results. Effort = showing up and doing your job as a Scout.

 

It's nice to have a Bugler in the Troop - too bad he hasn't been on ANY camping trip in months, hasn't participated in any fundraisers, community service projects, and has extremely poor attendance for regular Troop meetings. He's a life Scout, has 15 days left in his participation requirement and 16 days left in his POR requirement for Eagle. And I'll just bet he won't get dinged for Scout spirit or anything else when the time comes.

 

I can attest to the fact that my own son has been given the pass at some things in Scouting that I would have unequivocally failed him on, Scout Spirit being the very first one, and his POR being the next in line.

 

I also agree about consistency, and holding the Unit as a whole to a certain set of standards - clearly advertised! And follow through with consequences when those standards are not met, whatever the case may be.

[gwd-scouter]

I know many fellas that have been awarded their Eagle Scout medal for whom I admit I scratch my head and wonder, how, why? I have even been responsible for a couple of them myself.

 

Without long details, three years ago our Troop had a bunch of Life Scouts that had been completely inactive in the troop. Sporadic attendance at meetings, no attendance on campouts. PORs were in name only. Here I come as the new SM and within a month, one of the Life Scouts asks me what he has to do to make Eagle. I his case, nothing had been signed off in his book since becoming a Life Scout (2 years before) so he had not been given credit for POR or being active for six months. Same for the next guy that decided it was time to "make" Eagle. Both of these guys had less than a year until they turned 18.

 

I freely admit that I was much easier on these two young men while they worked to complete their requirements than I was on last year's Eagle and I am now on our current 18-year-old Life Scout working toward Eagle.

 

I didn't give them a free pass, but the guys in the troop now, today, would not recognize the expectations I had in those early days trying to just keep the troop alive compared to the expectations I have now, which mostly likely are not the same as the expectations I'll have next year and after.

 

Some may say that's unfair. But, there was no way I could raise the bar from nothing to mountain-top all in one move. We had to get there thoughtfully and gradually, starting with the new guys and working our way along over the years giving them more and more responsibility - until now those new guys are the older guys.

 

I know this is not a response directly to the question about the repeat offender Eagle Scout. It's just an acknowledgment that we all have a part to play in producing the "epitome" of Scouting. We've all know those Eagles that should have their picture next to "Eagle Scout" in the dictionary - the perfect shining example of what people envision when they hear those words. Then again, we've all also known those guys that are not exactly exemplary examples of Eagles, and I admit I've produced a couple of them.

[le Voyageur]

Parents,Scouters, and Professionals tend to forget that Scouting is not about making Eagle Scouts, but citizens first.

[OldGreyEagle]

First off, a Bad Eagle Scout is never responsible for earning Eagle. It is the unit that allowed this to happen who is responsible. If the scout is a bully, mean and otherwise not nice, waiting for the rank advancement scoutmaster conference to address the problem is not appropriate. The offending behavior is to be addresed as soon as possible. If a scout is not performing his POR, then he is to be removed from it. Not capriciously, but after a series of discussions with scout and eventually parents concerning expected behavior. If the scout is making and effort and struggles, then by all means work with the scout, but do not allow a scout to skate through.

 

I am not sure I understand about mean bullying Eagles, how did they receive the Life rank? Star Rank? When did they get mean and become a bully? Sometimes I think people get the type of troop they deserve

[OldGreyEagle]

First off, a Bad Eagle Scout is never responsible for earning Eagle. It is the unit that allowed this to happen who is responsible. If the scout is a bully, mean and otherwise not nice, waiting for the rank advancement scoutmaster conference to address the problem is not appropriate. The offending behavior is to be addresed as soon as possible. If a scout is not performing his POR, then he is to be removed from it. Not capriciously, but after a series of discussions with scout and eventually parents concerning expected behavior. If the scout is making and effort and struggles, then by all means work with the scout, but do not allow a scout to skate through.

 

I am not sure I understand about mean bullying Eagles, how did they receive the Life rank? Star Rank? When did they get mean and become a bully? Sometimes I think people get the type of troop they deserve