Insurance fixation

[Oak Tree]

Letting Cub Scouts play with a .357 clearly isn't safe. And that's the reason we shouldn't let them do it.

 

In all of these discussions I'd rather see the focus be on how to run a safe program than on how do we keep from getting sued.

 

It's good to know that even if we do something wrong, BSA will cover us. But that doesn't mean I want to go do something wrong, or that I'd say "no problem" to russian roulette. I like the kids I'm working with and the last thing I want to see is for any of them to get hurt.

[FScouter]

No, it's because of people that hire lawyers to get free money to make good on all the little slights that happen in that terrible existence we call "life". It's just terrible about that poor innocent girl that had her life ruined forever when she violated the rules by wearing earrings and got her ear ripped off the side of her head. Did the earring manufacturer get sued too?

 

All the more reason to help young people make ethical choices over their lifetimes.

[Beavah]

Ya Beavah but I thought that the BSA insurance covers you no matter what you do as long as you don't commit a crime. Why is this guy loosing time at work, having to hire a personal lawyer to deal with BSA layers that are tying to shift blame. Possibly to the CO and not the SM but can this guy really take that on faith? I had auto insurance for 20 years with the same company then I got rear ended and was injured. My insurance would not pay my medical bills, I had to sue and ended up with less than lost wages and medical bills. BSA's insurance isn't like that?

 

That's what Beavah claims but that's not what BSA says. As many here will tell you, only go by what BSA says.

 

Yah, I don't reckon educatin' and providin' information will help folks with genuine faith in da boogeyman (or the ones that have become BSA spokesmen ). Though I like the fiction of the magnum-wielding Russian-roulette den leader. That's even better than the boogeyman! But if we're goin' to view our fellow adult leaders as scum, might as well be accurate about it. Too many molesters out there. Not a single magnum-wielder though.

 

But for those who are really interested in this stuff and want to understand...

 

In a a case like what LongHaul mentions, the plaintiff may name the BSA as a party to the suit. Usually will, in fact. However, if it was a unit outing, the BSA is not responsible, eh? The negligence is committed by the adult leaders and, under the doctrine of respondeat superior, by the chartered organization for whom the adult leaders are volunteerin'. It's the Chartered Org., not the BSA who is responsible. Da BSA is just providin' a product (educational program materials).

 

So da BSA will routinely in such cases file to be excluded from the suit, and the court will routinely grant it. That's not "shifting blame". That's puttin' the blame where it lies. That also has nothing to do with da BSA's role as an insurer. The BSA still acts as primary insurer for the registered leader and the CO, even though the BSA is not party to the suit. This is just like a car accident... da plaintiff sues you, and your insurer defends you and pays any judgment. The plaintiff doesn't sue your insurer, they weren't drivin' the car.

 

Why is that important? Well, da BSA coverage has limits. Particularly in serial molestation cases, the BSA coverage can be exceeded, in which case the CO and the CO's insurer is next on the hook. That protects the BSA from an excessive judgment which could bankrupt the organization much like it's bankrupting Catholic dioceses. Which is why it's important to understand the role of a CO in supervisin' scouting volunteers, and how a scouter's fiduciary responsibility is to da CO, not to the BSA, because the CO is the one ultimately liable for their acts. That's also why da BSA does not ever want to be directly supervising the behavior of unit leaders... because if they supervise, then the BSA is responsible.

 

Now LongHaul's friend, assumin' the CO is a NFP organization, is probably immune from judgment by statute, so in the end only the CO is subject to the suit, while bein' insured by da BSA for the first $15+M. Maybe. In some states, the troop's permission slip/waiver may be strictly enforceable and the whole thing gets dismissed up front. And probably the plaintiff is suin' the ski area, the ski patrol, the ski manufacturer, the ambulance company, the ER doc, etc. So in other states it might be da CO ends up with only a fraction of da blame. Complimicated, which is why yeh leave it to da pros.

 

But yah, if you're involved in a suit, it does take up a bit of your time for depositions and the like. Just like jury duty, it's one of da costs of citizenship.

 

+++++

 

Now, as for "what BSA says," I'd say "show me." Show me a document from Irving that says they won't cover somebody. Not a Googled internet doc from a random council (though you'll note that da vast majority of councils do not say what yeh claim, but instead reflect what I've been saying). And not a document that uses terms of art that yeh don't know how to read right. Individual councils, like individual scout troops, botch things all the time, and documents hang around without updates or corrections for years. Yeh should have seen the hash my council made of YP procedures a year ago, or how many councils still tell leaders that BSA coverage is excess, not primary... and that was changed in 2001.

 

I can show you a few genuine Irving documents, eh? There is da COR training official syllabus which states the BSA will "Provide primary general liability insurance to cover the chartered organization and its board, officers, chartered organization representative, and employees against all personal liability judgments. This insurance includes attorney's fees and court costs as well as any judgment brought against the individual or organization. [emphasis mine]" The DE's instructions on how to answer a CO liability question are : " The Boy Scouts of America provides general liability insurance coverage to all chartered organizations for any liability that might stem from operating a Scouting unit." Those would be general documents from da National Council, eh?

 

But no need to trust da Beavah. "He's in Central Region, they might be weird ;)" Go ask your COR to set up an appointment with your Council President and your Scout Executive. No need to rely on the net, have a real corporation member (COR or IH) ask directly right in your very own back yard. Be sure to let 'em know that a brand new UC was tellin' them that insurance wouldn't cover and it scared 'em about liability and they were considerin' droppin' their charter if the BSA was goin' to "hang 'em out to dry" for ordinary negligence by the unit leaders.

 

Go have your COR ask. And accept the consequences.

 

Beavah

 

The above commentary is for informal and general education and discussion purposes only. Real issues of tort liability and insurance coverage are dependent on jurisdiction and carrier and cannot possibly be answered on an internet forum. Nothing in the above text constitutes a formal legal opinion, nor should any commentary here be relied upon as legal advice. For legal advice, hire a practicin' attorney in your jurisdiction. They're good people and will serve you well.

 

[Eamonn]

Much as I hate to spoil the fun.

I do really think the unkind comments about lawyers are unnecessary and uncalled for.

Take a look at most Council Executive Boards and I bet you find a number of lawyers, who give freely of their time and are happy to support Scouting.

Just as not everyone who rides a motorcycle is a Hell's Angel or a member of a drug pushing gang!!

Not every truck driver is a foul mouthed moron and not all Chefs are alcoholics.

OK, I'll admit my little sister is a lawyer, who has earned a lot of respect and several awards.

http://www.minterellison.com/public/connect/Internet/Home/People/Profiles/P+-+Walsh+Pattie

 

"A Scout is Kind"

Eamonn.

 

"A Scout is Kind"

[LongHaul]

Might be that I had just too much coffee today Beavah, and I know I try and play devils advocate a bit but this time I'm serious Scouts honor. This SM had to hire a personal attorney to act as a go between with the BSA attorneys. If the BSA covers the CO as well as the SM why are they coming down so hard on the SM? Yes the family, per their attorney's advice, is suing everyone they possibly can, even the Dad that drove the kid to the outing was originally named. The thing I'm having trouble understanding is the actions of the BSA attorney trying to prove negligence on the part of the SM to the degree that they want to know what training the man had and who trained him. I thought the BSA attorney was supposed to be on our side.

LongHaul

[packsaddle]

Eamonn, I admit that a few years back I would say similar things about lawyers. But then one of those 'ambulance chasers' helped protect my family from a huge loss. I tend to view things differently since. Sure he took a big cut. I was glad to hand it to him. I am glad we had a good man to help us with that kind of service.

[kraut-60]

Ask any lawyer how well received the issue of Tort Reform would among the members of the lawyer community.....I imagine they would laugh and think it a great joke!

 

Our nation needs Tort Reform to get away from the "free money" idea permeating our society. I can remember when attorneys DID NOT advertise...they didnt need to THEN. Now, it seems every shyster ad on TV is hoping to help someone get the compensation they "deserve".

 

I have an uncle from Glasgow Scotland who visits here regularly and has mentioned to me that in Great Britain, they have what he calls "Loser Pays". He described this premise as follows:

I bring suit against say...John-in-KC for defaming berets...ok, if I cant prove my case...I get to pay John-in-KC for the amounts I WAS suing him for. This would completly subvert the current tort-happy attorney's paradise we live within...IF WE had such a system.

 

Worrying about insurance...the lack of insurance...the need for insurance ..is time wasted in my eyes....I'm here to be a Scouter...not running scared about what COULD happen!

[hot_foot_eagle]

A few random thoughts on the subject(s):

 

Anyone can be sued for anything. Getting a judgement is another matter, but you're still going to need a lawyer, and that's going to cost money.

 

Many lawsuits are filed using the shotgun approach. Some of us are going to be in the pattern, so to speak.

 

There is no substitute for a solvent defendant. As much as they pay us to lead this scouting stuff, we ain't it (Most of us, anyway. Certainly not me.)

 

An umbrella policy is not particularly expensive and covers much more than just scouting activities. For many people it's probably not a bad idea.

 

If you've done your homework, take your responsibilities seriously, and don't act stupid, you can sleep at night and not worry about these things.

 

 

[Its Me]

 

Since this thread started with liability can it end with a Dutch Oven recipe?

 

 

[NeilLup]

I have been a defendant in a BSA related lawsuit.

 

It happened because of an incident that occurred when I was Council Commissioner. There was an accusation of child abuse at a one of our council camps. I did not even visit the camp that summer. However, every member of our council's executive committee were listed personally as defendants. Part of the reason, I suspect, is that in our state there is a $20,000 limit on recovery of damages from a non-profit. So it is common to sue individuals on which there is no limit.

 

The BSA provided legal counsel at no cost to me. They took action to remove me as a defendant and were successful in that effort after about 3 weeks. I was pleased no longer to receive invitations to that party.

[JeffD]

Oak Tree wrote - I guess we're just a litigious society. But boy, the topic comes up a lot more here than in real life. My observation that any thread can turn this way still holds, but I should definitely have given it a different name, analogous as it is to Godwin's law. Not sure I can give credit to jeff, though.

 

I never claimed to come up with the idea - just came up with the name for it Besides, Jeff's law has a nice ring to it

"Jeff's law states that for every scouter discussion, there is a direct correlation between the length of the conversation and the possibility of losing BSA insurance. "

[briantshore]

I work in a large Box Store. My job is building bicycles, and we hang them frome the ceiling. To do this we use a power lift, and we have to go about 25' in the air. While I was hanging a bike one day, I heard 2 customers walk under the lift and comment to each other. " If he droped that bike on us, we would be rich" My point, they saw potential danger, instead of taking a differant route, the ignored it, thinking more about what they would receive in a lawsuit, then the pain and suffering that would happen in a accident.

For the record, we must now wear orange vests while operating the lift, have at least one spotter with a vest, and block off the isles from pedestrian traffic.

[FScouter]

You'd better stop selling bicycles; too much liability. What if you didn't tighten the nut to the specified torque? How long has is been since you had your torque wrench calibrated? Did you inspect the nut before installing it?