Rogue Units

[OldGreyEagle]

Well Gold Winger I for one am not going to pile on a well meaning volunteer who has gone out of his way to serve the youth of your community. I do not have the background information to make a statement either if you are doing a fine job or were derelict in your duty. I think we all just need to trust that you are aware of the situation and are doing what you know is right.

[Gold Winger]

"And this is just a guess on my part, but they may not care about earning CQUA! Consequently this is not a very big stick to shake at them, IMO. I think CQUA is important,"

 

I guess that you missed my smiley. I don't really care if they get the CQUA. Our dist commish is making a big deal about unit visits so the can get the CQUA.

 

 

[eolesen]

I was always under the impression that the prohibition against paint ball and laser tag had nothing to do with insurance -- it was more to do with discouraging the action of pointing a loaded weapon at another person...

 

 

Commissioner Staff is a support role to help units put on a successful program, even if it isn't necessarily a fully compliant program.

 

Gold Winger, a few questions....

 

1) Does this unit participate in events at the district level?

2) Do they attend Roundtable?

3) Do they have any leaders who have gone thru anything more than just leader specific training?

 

Telling them what they're doing wrong isn't going to do much at all. I think we've all established that, and yes, that means there will be times as a commish that you need to look the other way when you see variations from BSA gospel.

 

If they're a Scouting island, and they've got a program that works, don't mess with that. Just take the time to let them know about opportunities to do things with other units, what they can learn from Roundtable, and what training opportunities are out there, i.e. Woodbadge. Once they're exposed to what other units do and what's available to them as far as resources, they may come around. And they may just chose to stay on the island.

 

Either way, you're supposed to be there as a friend of the troop. Don't forget that.

[Oak Tree]

Gold Winger,

 

I hope you don't perceive us as 'piling on' - I know that's not my intention. I think I'd be happy to have you as a good UC as a friend of my unit.

 

Recently I posted the exact same quote about 'intentional acts'. I find the council's explanation a bit implausible - because by their definition, almost every act will be intentional. I'd venture a guess that many (most?) of the injuries that occur happen because some safety policy was overlooked. As a follow up, I have asked multiple lawyers in our units, and they've given roughly the same interpretation of intentional that Beavah did here on the forum - that 'intentional' means that you intend the outcome.

 

Eamonn gave an egregious example of behavior that the BSA still covered.

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=166499&p=1

 

I am at a loss to explain why councils explain it the way they do - and if I were a CO, I would not be reassured by that explanation on the council's web site.

 

I continue to wish for a list of all cases that were brought against the BSA, and we could see which ones they backed and which ones they didn't. That could at least end some of the hypothetical nature of the discussion.

[Beavah]

I continue to wish for a list of all cases that were brought against the BSA, and we could see which ones they backed and which ones they didn't. That could at least end some of the hypothetical nature of the discussion.

 

Nah, I don't think that's as worthwhile as you'd think. That's after-the-fact stuff which really only applies to people dealin' with aftermath. And the answer is that such cases are always settled. Nobody takes a kid injury case to trial if they can help it.

 

What I wish they'd do is release accident and incident data (and do a better job of collectin' it from units). That would be somethin' we could use with unit leaders up front as an educational tool to really improve safety. Far more effective than readin' some bland rule on page 38 of G2SS and expecting 'em to remember it. Reading accident data and selected case histories really helps people understand what the issues are, why the rules are in place, and how to interpret them properly so as to keep kids safe.

 

It ain't the unusual high adventure stuff and "rules violations" that causes most damage. It's our day-to-day stuff and issues of youth supervision.

 

Beavah

 

[Oak Tree]

Beavah,

 

Yes, ok, I'd love to have that data as well. Saying "we've had five drowings in Scouts in the last ten years, and here's what caused them..." would be very effective eduction.

 

For the lawsuit stuff, yes, I get your point. I don't really care how they were settled (who won). What I want to know is, were there any cases where the volunteer and/or CO actually got sued and had to settle, and if so, what did the volunteers do to cause the BSA not to back them?

[Gold Winger]

"http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=166499&p=1 "

 

I read the thread but I didn't see the example.

 

I think that you aren't asking the right question.

 

You know that you aren't supposed to go canoeing without PFD but did anyway, that is the intentional act that violated policy. However, you did not intend for Johhny to drown which doesn't matter anyway because drowning is not a violation of BSA policy.

 

Now if the canoe rental place told you that all of their PFDs were CG approved but they weren't, your violation of policy would not be intentional.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I'd dealt with liability issues with large and small organizations in the past.

[RangerT]

Goldwinger

 

First, Congrats on taking one of the least popular volunteer jobs in scouting, it is not an easy one. I think Beavah was trying to tell you that the unit has to first know you as well as trust you before they will respect you and listen to your advice. From what I read you seem to be approaching them with a police mentality do it my way or else, instead of hey guys I have a lot of scouting experience under my belt which I would love to share with you which will make your pack a stronger unit with a great program that will attract a lot of boys.

 

After they accept you then you can start the fine tuning process, but if you push too hard too fast they will basically tell you to get lost. Honey always work better than vinegar in getting someone on your side. Just my 2 cents worth, Good Luck.

[Oak Tree]

You're right, I am combining threads in my memory. This topic seems to come up on oh-so-many threads. The thread I gave you was the one where I pulled the same quote off the same web site and we discussed it.

 

The thread with Eamonn's example is http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=165740

 

[Gold Winger]

One of the things that insurance companies and in this case BSA is the insurance company,do is pay if fighting is will cost more than the settlement. My auto insurance did this about 20 years ago. I was hit but they paid both claims because it would have cost more to fight it.

 

Be that as it may, I'm not willing to take the risk of being left out to dry because I didn't follow a rule in the G2SS.

 

Do I follow every rule? I try to. Have I broken any? Yes but I didn't set out in the morning knowing that what I was going to do that day was inviolation of the rules.

[Beavah]

Yah, Gold Winger, Oak Tree's thread had da answer yeh wanted, and I PM'd the answer to yeh too.

 

The answer to your question is that every general liability policy has an exclusion for criminal or intentional behavior on the part of the insured. That's not English. That's Legalese. "Intentional" in this context refers to an intentional tort. Dat's two steps above negligence and one step above reckless. To quote from da other thread:

 

Not every intentional tort is necessarily criminal, and finding someone criminally culpable requires a higher standard of proof. For example, physical hazing in a Scouting context is not a criminal offense in most jurisdictions. But a really bad case of physical hazing may well be an intentional tort, as well as a violation of BSA policies. The scouter must have desired to commit harm, or believed that harm was substantially certain to occur from his/her actions.

 

That's a darn sight different than "intentionally" taking an action that breaches a duty of care (ex. not making kids wear PFDs, etc.) which through a series of circumstances results in an accident. That would be ordinary negligence.

 

So... not making kids wear PFD's = ordinary negligence. Taking away a boy's PFD because you think the boy is a pain in the neck and you'd like to "teach him a lesson" in the big hydraulic on the next rapid = intentional tort. Don't count on an insurer for the second. Now, da BSA has an excellent reputation for stickin' by its leaders even in these kinds of dumb cases, but it would be their discretion, probably only up to the self-insured limit, and partly because defendin' the leader is also defending the CO. Of course they'll stick by the CO. Can yeh imagine 'em abandoning an LDS ward on an accident claim? Good way to become a much smaller organization quickly .

 

All that's above your pay grade as a commish, though, eh? Da point is that you as a commissioner need to be honest and Trustworthy. And makin' up nonsense about insurance not coverin' or bein' personally hung out to dry just isn't honest or Trustworthy. It's not in your training or any training syllabus.

 

And there's no reason for such tactics, eh? The reason we introduce units to G2SS is to help them understand how to keep kids safe. It's a Friendly and Helpful thing to do, and should be done in that spirit. No need for threats. That's not the way friends act.

 

My advice at this point is to take a week or two off this commish thing and relax. Go campin' with some kids. Remember that Scouting is fun. Then decide whether or not yeh can really participate in that fun, friendly, low-key way as a commish. If yeh can't, that's OK. Be honest about it, say it's not your style, and turn in your patch. There's lots of other volunteer positions at the district level that I'm sure you'd do a great job for.

 

Beavah

[Gold Winger]

I didn't make anything up, just parphrased from a council website. I think that I'll take their word over yours.

 

To paraphrase someone here, you're just a volunteer so your opinion isn't worth any more than mine.