Can you change by simply being in Boy Scouts?

[hotdesk]

In the thread that this was spun off of there was a lot of talk about advancement. There was discussion about whose goal should it be, the adults or the scouts? There was discussion about pushing it to hard and causing scouts to loose interest.

 

My question is can you learn and change by simply being in Boy Scouts or do you have to reach Eagle?

 

Something to help us think and answer this question is a simple composition:

 

Out Of 100 Scouts...

 

Of any one hundred boys who become scouts, it must be confessed that thirty will drop out in their first year. Perhaps this may be regarded as a failure, but in later life they will remember that they were in scouting.

 

Of one hundred, only rarely will one ever appear before a juvenile court judge. Twelve of that one hundred will be brought into contact with church and continue to be active members. Six of the one hundred will become elergy.

 

Each of the one hundred will learn something from scouting. Almost all will develop hobbies that will add intrest throughout the rest of their lives.

 

Approximately one-half will serve in the military and in varying degrees profit from their scout training. At least one will use what they learn in souts to save another persons life and many will credit it with saving their own.

 

Two of the one hundred will become Eagle Scouts, and one will later say that he valued his Eagle above his college degree. Many will find their future vocation through merit badge work and scouting contacts.

 

Seventeen of the hundred boyswill later become scout leaders and will give leadership to additional boys.

 

Only one in four boys in America will become Scouts, but of the leaders in the nation in business, religion, and politics, three out of four were scouts.

 

_________

 

Simply Put: About 5 out of 100 become Eagle Scouts, but all are in some way impacted by Scouts.

 

Before you push a scout who is not advancing ask him what his goals are. If he does not answer "becoming an Eagle Scout" don't be offended. As an adult help him reach his personal goals, not the goals that you have in mind.

[GernBlansten]

My current post in my unit is to be the guide for the Life to Eagle scouts. That means I'm the guy who has the answers for the scouts (and their parents) who wish to advance to Eagle. I know the process, the district contacts, the requirements for projects, the advice on who to talk to and when. I ping the Life scouts in our unit monthly to find out where they are. I gently prode them along. I tell them why finishing their advancement is valuable, but I leave it to them to do the work. But its their Eagle not mine. If they chose not to advance, that's fine. Their parents might feel differently, but perhaps that's why I get along better with them.

[hotdesk]

GernBlansten there is a role for people who work with Advancement. There is diffently a need for an Advancement Coordinator, Life to Eagle Coordinator, and others.

 

I'm sure that in your position you don't get to work with every single scout who has, at one time, registered with your unit. Do you get upset or overly concerened about this? Hopefully not. You're there to help those that are approaching the top of the summit. There to encourage those you just need an extra boost. I'm sure that you know that and therefore aren't upset at the scouts that don't make it to Life or Eagle.

 

Scouting is suppose to fun. It's a game, a game with a purpose.

 

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

I guess I'm disappointed in the subject. It to me is about same as discussing how many of our kids will be president. Life is not about getting our kids to be president and scouting is not about getting scouts to Eagle. That our discussions have got to this place is a concern because it implies that it really is all about reaching the gaol and not about the experience. No wonder so many adults ask how to make the program more fun. What they seem to really want is ideas to keeps boys interest until they reach eagle. We don't have discussions about the honor of first class or patrol leader. Not much is said of JASMs or honor patrols. We talk about Eagles.

 

We have a troop over here that averages about 140 scouts. They have the most Eagles in the District, but the one statistic that really sticks in the craw of the SM is that 80% of the scouts they loose are between the ages 14 and 15. Oh, did I mention that he makes sure every scout gets their Eagle by age 14. Yes, I know every district has a troop like that. But would you consider that troop a success or failure. Don't you wonder what they talk about after the scouts make eagle. After all their program stinks beyond that.

 

Not all that long ago the first class rank was considered the highest marketable achievement a scout should at least reach because that rank meant you had the skills to survive in the woods by yourself. That also meant real world as well. Advancement beyond that was considered a personal ambition, which made the Eagle all that more special. But, in that program skills were the primary goals because skills were considered what set scouts apart from all the other boys. When somebody needed first-aid and one you could choose between the boy scout and his none scout friend, who would you pick? Hey, did you know that the Army looked for boy scouts to storm the beaches on D-Day because they had first-aid and leadership skills. And remember the old stereotypical Boy Scout helping the little old lady across the street. That was showing skills in character. No one ever asked the rank of that scout.

 

It would have been unusual for a patrol leader to be of lower rank then first class because it was his job to bring the patrol safely out of the woods. Of course back then most Patrol leaders were of the age driving. They were truly experienced scouts. Now we talk about the eagle in about the same manner except we really don't seem to talk about the skills to reach Eagle, we talk about those who get it and those who don't. I wonder how many scouts today get their eagle before their drivers license. My mind wonders now and then.

 

I am not trying to take away the honor of the Eagle. I expressing how we spend more time talking about Eagle instead of the quality of skills of a boy scout. If we don't really give honor to the scout until he makes Eagle, then aren't we ourselves discounting the program for all boys? I know we keep saying it is OK to not be an Eagle, but isn't that tone even a little condescending?

 

When I was SM, we had a saying: Even if a boy only visits our troop once in his life, we want him to leave with something that will make his life better. Our goal was for every little thing a scout did in our troop to have value toward his life.

 

Really I guess I'm old school. I came from a troop of over 80 scouts in Oklahoma City. It was the the second largest troop in that area at the time. While I was there, we had two Eagle Scouts and we honored them and the ground the stood on because back then, that was a mighty task. We didn't have all the MB classes or counselor list like they do today. Adults didn't look at your book and remind how much time you have left and how many badges you have to go. You had to seek out a counselor yourself and you had to make the calls and set up the appointments. Typically back then you didn't know the counselor and they weren't scouters or even the parents of scouts. They were experts in field of your MB. You really had to want to be and Eagle to get the eagle.

 

Today we think of Eagles as good leaders because the requirments force boys to have time in leadership positions. Back then leadership was a given because scouts who earned Eagle were by nature ambitious and leaders anyway. It would have been unusual for an Eagle not to have been and SPL at some time in their scouting career. We didn't have respect for Eagles because they were good leaders. We had respect because they personally endured the time it took and persevered through all the requirements for the honor. They were truly elite.

 

But, we didn't talk that much about Eagles. They were doing their own thing. We talked about the Arrowmen. I was talking to a dad of two scouts in our troop who is an Eagle himself. As several of us complemented him for his acheivment, he looked at us and said, "yes thanks, But I was never voted into the OA". I knew what he meant.

 

Scouts of the OA were considered Scouting's special forces back then and here is why. Troops were only allowed to vote two scouts a year to be inducted to the Order of the Arrow. They were supposed to be your two best scouts. They had to be good leaders and good back then meant respected leaders, not just time in position. They had to have good scout skills because they had to pass several test before they were accepted. These were test of scout skills and survival, skills of character, self-disapline and servanthood. The test were tough and intended to sort out those who were just good, against those who were the best. The test were secret only to the OA, but there were rumors that made arrowmen smile as you asked them to break their oath. You could fail back then and many did. So we looked for our best skilled scouts. Every scout wanted to be an Arrowmen because that was your own troop voting you as the best. Being an Arrowmen meant that you had learned your skills well and you had earned the respect of being a good leader. You had to be at least 14 to be nominated back then, but in our troop, you likely were at least 16.

 

When I got back involved with scouting as an adult, I eventually found myself involved many parts of the scouting program like District, Council, JLTC, and most levels of training. But I stayed away from the OA program because to me it is a huge disappointment to what the program once was and the honor it once held. I didn't criticize it or put it down, I just didn't get involved. I of course honored my scouts who were voted in because they deserve that from me today. But to know an Arrowmen of the old days is like knowing someone who climbed Mt. Everest.

 

OK, I'm sorry this is long and I know this is my problem because times have changed. I'm not whining about how Boy Scouts is becoming girls scouts because I good scoutmaster can still bring the best out of boys. I'm expressing that we seem so lost about what it takes to be a scout anymore that we dissect the Eagle until it has become the true diffinition of a mature scout. Even though we say it isn't, between the lines we are saying the Eagle is the goal, the true scout in all the programs glory. And even when we do talk about the 5%, most adults really think 95%. First Class is just one of those little ranks along the way and we hope the scout learned his skills, but we mostly just assume. Still for me, I will shake the hand of a first class scout because the rank does hold a certain special place in my heart.

 

Sorry about my soap box. Thanks for allowing me to vent. I mean no offense to anyone here, it is just a general irritant from someone that sometimes has a hard time accepting differences of the times. I will make an effort to grow.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[hotdesk]

Barry:

 

this discussion was not meant to explain the importance of Eagles, simply the importance of the program.

 

The answer to my first question is explained at the end of the post:

 

 

 

The most important thing is to get scouts into the program. After that it is about making it fun for each individual scouts and having them reach their personal goals. Each scout will be impacted by the program regardless of their end rank.

 

I guess another question to answer is:

 

Do you have a better experience when you reach your personal goals or when you fail to reach them?

 

My bet is when you reach your personal goals you have a better experience because you feel better about yourself. As adults we need to remember what the scout's goals are for himself. If it is to canoe 50 miles in 2 days then that is the goal we should help him reach. If his goal is to become a more complete scout then we should teach him our scouting skills. Each scout will get what they want out of the program, but we need to be there to help them.

___________

 

On another note, addressing some of your other concerns:

 

1. I don't know how a 14 year old becomes a real Eagle Scout. That means that they reach the summit at or before Freshman year in highschool. Most of these kids would not be mature enough to understand the importance of the rank, much less the importance of the things they learned through experience and Merit Badges.

 

Also, how much experience are they going to have?

 

2. In my troop we stress the importance of skill over the importance of rank advancement. Our scouts that crossed over in March are just now reaching Tenderfoot. They will reach First Class by their First year. However, our goal has been to focus on one skill per month and have compounding review. Scouts are still expected to know the scouting skills. In our area if you know that someone is a scout you expect them to know First Aid and the such.

 

Any advancement after First Class does become personal ambition. If they want to reach Eagle they will. We do have help for them in the roles of Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmasters, Advancement Coordinator, Life to Eagle Coordinator, and other adults.

 

3. Order of the Arrow has lost its lust that it once had. Now days almost all scouts who reach First Class and have camped the requrired 15 nights are elected. Only 1 time in my 10 years with my troop have we not elected someone who was elgible.

 

Order of the Arrow does not drive home the things that it strives to. Those scouts that do talk are not reprimanded. They are simply asked to remain silent. A scout that talks again or again is not removed, but again asked to be silent. I almost think that you could talk the entire time and nothing would happen.

 

The tasks that you are asked to complete are not as complete as the ones you once were. They are now simple things that camp needs done. When you visit back in a year or two it is likely that you won't be able to say "I did that." because many other scouts will have done the same thing. Where's the pride to remain in that?

 

 

[ozemu]

Great question hotdesk.

 

Using the 'environment effects behaviour' arguement the answer is yes; depending on the way the Troop runs itself. Which has been said already. Some Troops will foster more life-skills activity than others. Working towards anything (Eagle, OA, MB's etc) will encourage a Scout to learn more useful life-skills that otherwise might seem like a bit of drudgery. Good leaders (adults and youth) will do the same but with more driving by others than self motivation.

 

Using the 'you are born with predispositions' arguement the answer is again yes; but the likelihood of real change is much reduced. As I understand it the Scout will need to know that the activities at Scouts are useful to their growth. Without that they will enjoy the fun and immediately the fun becomes drudge they will focus on other stuff. The motivation to see through the stuff that isn't great fun won't be there. Unless they know that Scouting as a package will assist them to become better people. Hard for teens to grasp I think regardless of how obvious it is to parents and Scouters. Here we are talking about things like ADHD, asperges, etc We ALL have elements of such genetic predispositions. Some more than others. Such 'born with' issues can be helped along by Scouting but a lot of people will need to help this happen. It will not happen by itself as the Scout affected will probably bow out when Scouting looses its simple fascination and requires more commitment for the fun to be there. "thirty will drop out in their first year."

 

So is Eagle important? Heck yes. So is anything else that causes a Scout to work hard toward a goal. That sort of motivation is more important than the presence of others - SM's, parents etc.

 

With no motivation they will leave. If they are not in Scouts then the 'change by simply being in Scouts' will not be possible. Yes one meeting might leave in the mind a useful memory. Might not too. Might have had a rotten time. The longer a Scout is in Scouts the more likely they will change for the better.

 

The more motivated they are they more likely they will change for the better.

 

The more they are motivated by achieving goals (any goals) the more likely they will change for the better and the easier making those changes will be on everyone else.

[hotdesk]

There are a few things that being in Scouts can teach a young man:

 

1.Working toward a common goal

When a patrol meets they are working toward some common goal. In the work place everyone has a common goal that they share.

 

Being in a patrol will help a young man learn how to identify his and others strengths and weaknesses. It will then teach them how to use this strengths and weaknesses.

 

2.Making Presentations

In the work place people are expected to share their results and make presentations.

 

In scouting scouts make presentations. The Senior Patrol Leader presents the annual plan to the committee. Scouts present skills to others.

 

3.Superversion

The higher paying jobs are those of supervisors. Scouting teaches young men how to supversise their peers and encourage them to perform.

 

These are just a few areas that scouting helps young men improve.

 

 

[moxieman]

Hotdesk asked: My question is can you learn and change by simply being in Boy Scouts or do you have to reach Eagle?

 

Well, I searched all my old posts and can't find this tale, though I could have sworn I posted it in these forums about a year or so ago.

 

Eight years ago (summer of 1999), my brother and I were invited to

serve on the staff of the First Maritime Jamboree, a regional Scouts

Canada jamboree held at Kouchibouguac National Park in northeastern

New Brunswick. It was a small jamboree with roughly 1,200 scouts from 5 Canadian Provinces and eight American states. My brother and I were the only two Americans on the program staff. We had been invited to operate the low level COPE element known as The Web' (which can be found in the Troop Resources monthly planner under the Leadership theme). We had been invited to do this for we had put on this same event for several years at a Scouts Canada fall district event that our troop (at the time) had been invited to year after year.

 

The Web' served as one of four events at the obstacle course site at

the jamboree. Approximately sixty scouts would be in our site each

period. There were two periods a day during that week. In the site

they would be split up at random into 4 groups and rotate through our

four programs. So we would put groups of about 20 scouts through The

Web' in a 30 minute period consisting of 5 minutes of instruction, up

to 20 minutes to complete the task and 5 minutes of discussion on what

worked and didn't work. Keep in mind these are mixed groups where a

scout might only know one or two others in his group. It provided

quite a challenge for them to learn to work together as a team in a

hurry.

 

The week went by fast. We made friends. We packed-up the equipment

at the close of the Jamboree and made the 11 hour drive home to

central Maine and looked back on the photos and the friends we made.

That fall we were at that Canadian District event again running The

Web'. One of the Scouts Canada District volunteers approached us and

asked if we had heard the news. We asked, what news? She told us the

tale of the scout who's life got turned around at the Jamboree.

 

This scout had had serious problems at home that eventually led to him

being thrown out by his parents. He was doing poorly in school. He

was bouncing from foster home to foster home due to behavior issues.

He was allowed to attend the Jamboree as a "last chance" effort.

After the Jamboree, it was like this scout was a totally different

person. He cleaned-up his act. He was already showing significant

improvement in school. He apologized for his behavior to his family

and was welcomed back into their home. His scout leader asked him

what happened to make him change his life around so quickly. The

scout credit us and The Web'.

 

It still brings tears to my eyes. Neither of us would have ever known

if our Canadian friends hadn't passed the word along. In the rare

occasion, when I feel like I'm getting discouraged, I just look back

on that event, for you never know how many other untold tales there

are out there like this one, where you, the volunteer in scouting, has

made a real difference in some youth's life.

 

 

So, YES, a boy can learn and change for the better simply by being in scouting.

[scoutldr]

Well said, Barry. Actually, the program hasn't changed all that much. That's the way MB and OA are STILL supposed to work. Boys are not all that different, either. That leaves the adults...

 

I loved this Scouting stuff.

[gwd-scouter]

One Scout's personal achievement, or what Boy Scouts has done for him.

 

Summer 2006, new Scout at his first summer camp. Nice kid, shy, nervous, and away from home for the first time. Couldn't swim, wouldn't hike, didn't voluntarily offer to help with anything. Mom and Dad admit to being overly cautious with him and giving in to him whims. Spoiled for sure, not a brat, but spoiled all the same.

 

Left camp at mid-week because he was homesick and Mom and Dad made a big show of how they missed him when they came up for family night. New Scout told Mom and Dad he wanted to quit. Had a SM conference with him the next week and we talked about what he did at summer camp. Especially, his accomplishment at getting in the lake and at least trying to pass the swimmer's test. He didn't, but he tried. I was enormously proud of his effort and he puffed up a bit at the compliment. He didn't quit Scouts.

 

Last spring he opted out of the backpacking trip. Talked with him again about pushing past his comfort zone and trying to do something he knew was going to be hard. He went. He made it. Yes, he was always last and it was very difficult for him being overweight and out of shape. But he made it and the grin on his face after the trip as he talked about what he did showed his personal pride in his accomplishment.

 

This past summer at camp, he did pass the swimmer's test. Seems he had been practicing at home before camp because he wanted to pass the test so he could canoe and free swim at camp. He also took it on himself to take the learn to swim lessons each day to help strengthen his swimming ability.

 

A couple of weekends ago, this Scout (2nd class) was the oldest and highest ranking Scout in our Troop that went to the district camporee. He was in charge of the other three Scouts, all new guys. He was nervous, he needed a lot of guidance, but he did a great job. Driving home from the campout he talked to me in the car. Now he's interested in earning 1st class.

 

From wanting to quit about a year ago, to asking what it takes to earn 1st class. One Scout who is getting something out of being a Boy Scout.

[Eagledad]

>>If he does not answer "becoming an Eagle Scout" don't be offended.

[ozemu]

I posted elsewhere asking for pyschology research on Scouting and was offered a suggestion (Credit to Calico)that has more to do with hotdesk's question. If interested try:

 

'Value of Scouting' and 'A year in the Life of a Scout' at: http://www.scouting.org/media/research/

[allangr1024]

A few posts back I read this:

 

"1. I don't know how a 14 year old becomes a real Eagle Scout. That means that they reach the summit at or before Freshman year in highschool. Most of these kids would not be mature enough to understand the importance of the rank, much less the importance of the things they learned through experience and Merit Badges. "

 

I have heard advancement people in our council say that they would never let a young boy pass a board of review because they are not "mature" enough.

 

I read these requirements for the rank of Eagle:

Eagle Rank Requirements

1. Be active in your troop, team, crew, or ship for a period of at least six months after you have achieved the rank of Life Scout.

2. Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references.

3. Earn a total of 21 merit badges (10 more than you already have), including the following:

First Aid

Citizenship in the Community

Citizenship in the Nation

Citizenship in the World

Communications

Personal Fitness

Emergency Preparedness OR Lifesaving

Environmental Science

Personal Management

Swimming OR Hiking OR Cycling

Camping

Family Life

You must choose only one merit badge listed in items g and j. If you have earned more than one of the badges listed in items g and j, choose one and list the remaining badges to make your total of 21.

4. While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility:

Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, or instructor.

Varsity Scout team. Captain, cocaptain, program manager, squad leader, team secretary, Order of the Arrow team representative, librarian, quartermaster, chaplain aide, instructor, or den chief.

Venturing crew/ship. President, vice president, secretary, treasurer, boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, purser, or storekeeper.

 

5. While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project should benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) The project plan must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and troop committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 18-927, in meeting this requirement.

6. Take part in a Scoutmaster conference.

7. Successfully complete an Eagle Scout board of review.

 

 

I got these from the BSA web site. I see nothing here about being mature, or understanding the importance, or having the full experience. The only age requirement is to do it by age 18. If a boy can do it, and has the interest, he should get the eagle rank for his achievement.

 

We have no test to tell if a scout is a good leader. It is subjective. I know boys in my troop who did not get elected to anything (SPL, PL, etc.) but served in appointed positions in the troop. Can you be an Eagle scout and serve as a scribe, den chief, librarian, or chaplsins aid. Not according so some, I guess.

 

We should not add to the requirements. They are tough enough. The reason, I think that few scouts reach Eagle, is that it takes 3 years at least, and it is hard for boys to stay with anything that long.

 

 

 

[MarkS]

I think the real nutshell question here is, "can scouting prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law without them achieving the rank of Eagle?"

 

Yes, certainly. The mission of scouting can be achieved if a boy does not earn Eagle rank. Conversely, earning Eagle doesn't necessarily mean that the mission of scouting has been achieved.

 

However, from a parent's perspective, I know that college admissions officers and those that divvy out scholarship money are only really interested in whether or not a boy earned Eagle.

 

The lessons my son can learn from the program is why I enrolled him in scouting and why I hope he continues in the program. The money that can potentially be saved is why I encourage him to earn Eagle.

 

Hopefully, I'm smart enough to find the right balance between motivation and allowing him to make his own choices--not only for him but all the boys in the unit I support.

[hotdesk]

My point is that advancement is a part of scouting, not the prime focus. The program is here to develop overall knowledge, skills, and abilities in leadership, citizenship, and stewardship.

 

Don't get me wrong, when a scout wants to advance we should consider it important, at least for them.

 

In a publication from the Blackhawk Area Council titled "The Scoutmaster II" who was written by a Scoutmaster of 20 years and a member of our Council Executive Board it states that one of the top three reasons 15 year olds left scout was that they were not challenged.

 

Some scouts will find challenge in rank advancement and others will find challenge in the high adventure activities they participate in. And then even some will need challenge in both areas.

 

In the post that this was spun off of there was discussion about rank advancement. I spun this off to help make a point that scouts do not need to reach Eagle in order to be changed by the program.

 

____________________________

Someone brought up that there was no minimum age requirement for Eagle. That is true. I mentioned that

 

""1. I don't know how a 14 year old becomes a real Eagle Scout. That means that they reach the summit at or before Freshman year in highschool. Most of these kids would not be mature enough to understand the importance of the rank, much less the importance of the things they learned through experience and Merit Badges. "

 

I understand that there is no minimum age requirement. However, I think that, for the most part, it would hold up that most 14 year old kids wouldn't be mature enough. Wouldn't completly understand the experiences they went through and things they learned.

 

If they do not understand these things when the reach Eagle, are we doing them a disservice? Are we really accomplishing the aims of the program? These aims being moral strenght and character, participating citizenship, and development of physical (well-tuned and healthy), mental (able to think and solve problems), and emotional fitness (self-control, courage, and self-respect).

 

If they understand these aims and grasp them then they are ready at 14. If they are reaching Eagle because we have pushed them or formed an Eagle Mill then we have done them a disservice.