Thinking Out Loud: Entertainment or Discipline or Gang?

[GernBlansten]

If it aint fun, you won't keep the interest in the youth. The trick is to make all the stuff fun. Sometimes, you got to mix some of the unfun stuff in to get the job done, but at the end of the day, if they don't think its fun, they will leave.

If you focus on the un-fun stuff, the only thing keeping the youth there is the parents.

[GaHillBilly]

I just got back from the camp out and it was an 'interesting' weekend. From several perspectives, it went well for us. From other perspectives . . . well, we'll have to wait and see.

 

I've scanned the various posts made while I was gone, and I want to thank you all very much. I already saw many points I'd overlooked, forgotten, or simply didn't know. It will take some time to digest, but I know it will be helpful.

 

I'll post later, once my brain is back up to normal function. A whole weekend of 'walking on eggshells' and 'biting my tongue' has been emotionally draining and mentally tiring, so now is not the time.

 

Thanks again!!

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

 

[pinkflame]

Last week we got back from what the boys are universally calling "the funnest campout ever". Even my teenage son (soon to be 16) has spontaneously said to at least two boys whho weren't there that they should have gone and has even gabbed about it to non-Scout friends. One boy who is totally not a fan of camping and had only come along for the day asked to call his dad for permission to stay the night.

 

What did we do? We volunteered for as support for a big multiple sclerosis bike ride (150 miles, about 4000 riders). Our guys set up tents, unloaded and categorized bicyclists' luggage (it came to the mid-point by semi, then had to be unloaded, placed in numbered areas, then re-loaded the next morning), racked bikes, delivered ice, prepared and served food to bikers and volunteers and just basically found a bazillion other ways to be helpful (and friendly, courteous, kind, etc.) for the weekend.

 

We adults were resources and sometimes pointed them where they were needed, but mainly they self-organized and then took their direction from the MS Society people, who were amazed at their maturity and initiative. They have already asked us to come back next year, and the boys are excited and spreading the word to the guys who did not make it.

 

Frankly, so were we. We usually do normal campouts, patrol cooking, scout skill themes, etc.. This idea began because one of the boys from the troop was riding in the events. A call came out from the Council for troops to help and we volunteered.

 

The point is, "fun" is a completely relative term. The boys worked like dogs in the sun for a large part of both days, but they all had "fun". I think some of the "fun" was being recognized as valuable contributors to a community effort. Some probably came from what they perceived as autonomy to choose their tasks (trailer unloading or dining hall?). I'm not 11, 12, 13 ,14 ,15 or 16, so I probably don't have a clue why they thought it was fun. One boy said what he liked was that they didn't "have to do anything". This was after he had spent 3-4 hours unloading a semi, helped his patrol set up their campsite and helped with two large dining flies in our public area in the main bike ride tent city. (He might have done other things as well, that's just all the things I personally saw him do.)

 

The point is, "fun" doesn't have to be endless giggles and grins. The boys know it, and we should listen to what they have to say.

[GaHillBilly]

pinkflame wrote: "The point is, 'fun' is a completely relative term."

 

Yeah, I'm coming to realize that. My family and I tend to use it to refer mean "entertaining" or "amusing" or "pleasurable". But, I'm realizing that many people, especially kids, and even including my own 12 year old would use the word "fun" where words like "meaningful" or "challenging" would be more appropriate.

 

In the original case of the local ASM, I'm pretty sure, well, very sure, that he meant by "fun" what a Cub Scout would mean by it, but I'm not at all sure that all posters to this thread are using it that way.

 

GaHillBilly

 

PS. For a total change of direction, how about this: I now realize that one of the major reasons my son and I felt so 'zonked' on our return yesterday was probably physical in origin.

 

We were mildly dehydrated!

 

When I tallied up our liquid intake, I was dismayed. Even worse, I'm pretty sure we drank more than most. No doubt someone here is a health professional who can commend more knowledgeably than I, but I'm pretty certain that it's not good for an active 12 year old, in sunny and dry conditions, to have a total 48 hr fluid intake of less than 64 oz.

 

I'm also guessing, given the distraction of various activities coupled with the desire to avoid having to pee at night, that it's a common problem!

[ScoutNut]

GA HillBilly - Have you considered that BSA might not be the organization for you?

 

Perhaps, instead of trying to change every unit you come into contact with, you should consider the concept that BSA might just not be for your family.

 

Nothing wrong with that. Something for your family to think about.

 

[Gunny2862]

So GaHillBilly,

How was the weekend and did it clarify any thoughts you were having?

 

And yes, that little water would be a serious issue in my book. Hopefully you drank more than that?

[ASM857]

I am an Assistant Scout Master, also Past bear & webelos den leader. i consider fun if the boy's are working together and enjoying the outing. Example we do a spring crossover trip for the incoming webelos, the older scouts have planned the menu and the fishing activity. They then help the younger scouts if needed with lines, and cleaning fish. This is a success each year because of the PLC, I'm looking forward to this weekend they have an outing were they will be making catapults on site to launch pumpkins, not sure how that will work out. On advancement I review every scouts book every quarter and ask what I can help them with and point them in the right direction to go. Example if needing service hours options local food pantry's, humane society, advancment is a goal we leave to the scout, a boy that crossed over with my son just got first class, were everyone else is finishing Star or working on life. That is his choice and we are glad to have him.

 

Enough of my rambling hope it might help

YIS

Doug Buth

[GaHillBilly]

ScoutNut wrote:

"Have you considered that BSA might not be the organization for you?

Perhaps, instead of trying to change every unit you come into contact with . . ."

 

Uh, I've 'come into contact with precisely ONE unit'. And I wasn't even "trying to change" it. The actions I've taken locally -- as opposed to the much more candid thoughts & questions I've posed here -- were motivated in part by guilt: I was trying to offer the other boys the opportunities my own son had. Under the circumstances, this proved to be a mistake. But it was not a mistake made because I set out to change the unit.

 

I've used this forum to 'think out loud' and to ask, and say, things I can't ask or say locally.

 

Please keep in mind that when we joined this unit, it was on the basis of the recommendation of the District Executive. I had already ruled out two troops we had knowledge of, because I knew that one was an advancement mill, and the other was relatively inactive.

 

Even before we joined, I had already read quite a bit about the BSA. I asked the DE to recommend a troop that (1) took the requirements seriously, (2) was focused on something more than entertaining the boys, and (3) was pursuing the boy-led concept. The DE recommended this troop based, I'm sure, on the 'square knot quilt' worn by the SM. I'm confident that the DE was making the recommendation based on the best information they had. Unfortunately, I didn't know then what I know now. The DE was a new council employee, with hardly more BSA experience than I had. Even so, more experience might not have mattered. At least in this council, the DE's rarely (never?) attend regular troop meetings, and so aren't in a very good position to make such recommendations.

 

One outcome of all this is that I will definitely publish on the web a page for prospective Scout parents, entitled something like "Things I Wish I'd Known BEFORE We Signed Up". For example it didn't dawn on me till well after we were committed that SM's and ASM's who are overweight, out of shape smokers are rather unlikely to field troops with active adventure programs. It's obvious in hindsight, but it didn't occur to me soon enough.

 

None of this adds up to hostility toward Scouts, or even an attempt to change Scouting. If anything, I would say I'm on a quest to find a troop that works 'as advertised'. Given that Scouts are supposed to be "trustworthy", that seems to me to be an eminently reasonable quest.

 

GaHillBilly

[Lisabob]

GAHillBilly,

 

I'd really like to see your list of things you wish you'd known before joining a troop. I think it could be quite instructive for people who are looking for troops now (keeping in mind, of course, that no troop is perfect!).

[GaHillBilly]

Gunny2862 asked:

"How was the weekend and did it clarify any thoughts you were having?"

 

My son and I found the weekend 'challenging' -- he was trying to complete the 1st class cooking requirements, and was assigned the "adult" patrol. He's cooked for us at home, and even on camping trips, but delivering hot meals in the dark with minimal help for 9 - 10 adults is a lot different than cooking for our 4 person family. He did a great job (in my opinion), and learned a lot. Did he pass? Don't know yet -- not my call.

 

My thoughts are somewhat clearer today, now that I've had time to digest some of what happened and was said, and have been able to discuss things with my son. But I still haven't read all the posts in this thread carefully. I'll need to get back to you on this.

 

However, I'm hoping to communicate with you in the future. My 12 year old is very seriously planning to join the Marines. If my 20 year old had told me the same when he was 12, I wouldn't have paid much attention. But my younger son is a little like a rail car: it takes him forever to decide on a particular track, but once he's on it, he tends to follow it to the end. In this case, he's been planning to go into the military since he was 3! This goal focused specifically on the Marines, after we read parts of "Keeping Faith" out loud a couple of years ago. He *loved* going to the Ranger open house at Camp Merrill last May, and is planning to return, and better his 5K time, this May. Also, his favorite 'movie' -- to the point of having memorized chunks of it -- is "Band of Brothers". (It's weird -- zombie movies give him nightmares, but realistic or even actual depictions of combat violence don't bother him. He'll even talk about his plans in case he lost a limb or eyes!) All of this to say, I'm taking him somewhat more seriously than I would most kids his age.

 

Anyhow, I'm hoping you could give me information about what I can do to help him make a more informed and realistic decision about this. Unlike my father, and grandfathers, and great uncles, and so on, I was never in the military, so I'm not very informed. But, I do NOT want him to do this just because it's what he's 'always' planned to do!

 

GaHillBIlly

[GaHillBilly]

Lisabob asked:

"I'd really like to see your list of things you wish you'd known before joining a troop. I think it could be quite instructive for people who are looking for troops now (keeping in mind, of course, that no troop is perfect!)."

 

I planned to do so, in part because I think the list would be much better after I got criticism and correction from y'all. But, I don't have it finished yet, even in preliminary form. I just have some notes. Such a list probably should be in its own thread, or maybe even threads.

 

However, I've put two example points below.

 

GaHillBilly

 

 

-- Please, if anyone wants to really discuss these now, spin off a new thread! --

 

"3. A troop's activity roster is mostly controlled by 4 things: the boys' choices, the troop's budget and location, the type of equipment available to the troop, and the Scoutmaster. Of these, the SM is the most important factor. SM's usually don't do things they dislike or are unable to do. Troops with SM's who are overweight, unfit, or smokers are unlikely to go backpacking, rock climbing or on long hikes. Troops with SM's who swim poorly or who hate the heat will tend to be pretty inactive in summer. For the same reason, a troop with many overweight or unfit boys, and especially boy leaders, will tend to be sedentary.

 

Your best guide to what a troop WILL be doing, is NOT what the SM is 'planning' to do, but rather it DID do over the last year."

 

 

"7. BSA fund raising, at the troop level, is often parasitic or emotionally coercive in nature. Even nationally sponsored popcorn sales don't meet the BSA's own standards of giving good value*, in fund raising efforts. Unfortunately, for most the public their primary contact with Scouting is through these fund raising activities. Consequently, for many of them Scouts are people to avoid!

 

Participating in such activities may not quite be morally wrong, but it has been troubling at least for my son and myself."

 

* Scoutmaster Handbook, ©1998, 2006 prining, page 169: On the fund raising project check off list, " ____ Will buyers get their money's worth from the product or service?"

 

[Gunny2862]

GaHillBilly, PM out!

[Gunny2862]

GaHillBilly, I am also interested in such a list.

 

Perhaps it could be set as a decision guide with a positive slant rather than just a rehash of problems we have most likely all found when we started.

Collaborative effort? New thread? Finished product might even go in my new parent orientation packet!

 

[GaHillBilly]

Gunny2862 wrote:

 

"Perhaps it could be set as a decision guide with a positive slant rather than just a rehash of problems we have most likely all found when we started.

Collaborative effort? New thread? Finished product might even go in my new parent orientation packet!"

 

That sounds like a great idea!

 

What might work would be a set of 'originators' like myself who are new to Scouting, and a set of 'commentators' like LisaBob who are experienced. I want to do this, in part, because I didn't do it for competitive USS age-group swimming. My wife and I still remember how bewildering we found all that at first, but it's a foggy memory now. Once you've been in something for awhile, all the stuff that's incredibly confusing to newbies becomes forgotten in it's familiarity.

 

GaHillBilly

[GaHillBilly]

Gunny2862 wrote:

 

"Perhaps it could be set as a decision guide with a positive slant rather than just a rehash of problems we have most likely all found when we started.

Collaborative effort? New thread? Finished product might even go in my new parent orientation packet!"

 

That sounds like a great idea!

 

What might work would be a set of 'originators' like myself who are new to Scouting, and a set of 'commentators' like LisaBob who are experienced. I want to do this, in part, because I didn't do it for competitive USS age-group swimming. My wife and I still remember how bewildering we found all that at first, but it's a foggy memory now. Once you've been in something for awhile, all the stuff that's incredibly confusing to newbies becomes forgotten in its familiarity.

 

GaHillBilly