Thinking Out Loud: Entertainment or Discipline or Gang?

[GaHillBilly]

Things have come to a head with my local troop. We're going to 'talk about it' and 'cool down' (not that it ever really got 'hot'), but most likely my son and I are going to move on. We'll probably hook up through camp with a troop that meets only monthly; this'll leave us plenty of time to visit around, plus my son wants to explore volunteer opportunities with the local ScoutReach.

 

But, the whole 'discussing it' process has caused me to think a lot about our participation. I'm sure I've exhibited some characteristics of the "over-involved" and "hovering" parents I've seen discussed here. And, I've definitely misunderstood what some of the boys wanted to do. On their part, the (A)SMs (or at least one of the them) acknowledge that they've under-planned and over-assumed. It looks like we'll be able to part on pretty good terms, which pleases both my son and myself.

 

But, all this 'conflict' has made me think a LOT about differing goals, expectations and values, and it's raised a lot of questions. So, I'd like to 'think out loud' and invite you do so as well. I'm not just interested in finding the 'right' or 'best' answer, but equally in finding out what Scout leaders may be thinking. So, even if you can't offer an argument supporting *your* answer, I'm interested in what it is. I'd also appreciate some indication of your role in Scouts, whether it's as a Scout, a parent, a SM, or another flavor of leader.

 

Any of these questions could spin off into its own thread: feel free to do so if it seems warranted. I've got to go on our final (probably) camping trip with this troop, where we're scheduled to (1) have 4 boys doing 1st Class cooking (my son's cooking for the adults), (2) go on the 5 mile 2nd class hike, (3) complete the 1st class orienteering course, & (4) do an emergency drill a la the EP MB . . . all between Friday PM and Sunday noon!!!. No doubt, all this will be completed successfully! ;-) But, it will be Monday before I can take a look at the forum again.

 

Anyhow, here are my questions:

 

1. My troop's lead ASM recently said, of the overall program, ". . . as long as it's fun. After all, that's what's really important!". I would have expected him to think of 'fun' as necessary, but not a program goal. Is his view typical of most SM's and ASM's?

 

 

2. B-P refers to troops and patrols as a "gang of boys". Granted, the term didn't mean, when he used it, what it means now. But it seems to me he had in mind the sort of bonded social grouping that criminal gangs today exhibit, as do high school peer affiliation groups (the Goths, the nerds, the "emo's", the jocks, etc.). Exclusive membership, initiation, bonding, loyalty, identifying dress and vocabulary, affiliative activity, etc. are characteristics of all these groups. What seems (from what I've read) to really draw kids into these groups is the sense of identity, purpose and community that they offer -- not 'fun'. Of all the military branches by all reports, the Marines have the worst conditions, equipment, and missions, but the highest levels of morale and commitment. And they are the branch that most strongly exhibits this social affiliation group pattern, adding to it of course, a very strong message of common purpose and shared commitment to honorable values.

 

Should Scouts be more like that, if the goal is to influence boys?

 

 

3. Such peer affiliation seems to become possible in early puberty, but not before. Thus, I gather "fun" IS in fact essential to Cub Scouts, since that Cub ages, the other forms of commitment and interest aren't yet possible. Obviously, given the way the program is structured, rising Webelos are going to expect 'more of the same', and thus more "fun".

 

Does the use of Cub Scout packs as 'feeders' for Boy Scouts end up by compromising Boy Scout values?

 

 

4. I was corrected, when I pointed out to a 14 year old 2nd Class (about to be 1st Class) Scout that getting more camp and MB college type badges (ie, non-Eagle) won't help him move up (he only has one Eagle badge). I was told that "Not everyone should be Eagle, and we don't need to focus on that. If they want to be an Eagle, they should figure that out on their own." I confess, I may have been pushing when I shouldn't have. On the other hand, there has been absolutely discussion at either the troop or patrol level of setting goals, of what's required to progress, etc. Figuring out "on their own" seems to mean that if they don't, after reading the Handbook, decide 100% on their own, and without outside encouragement, to pursue Eagle rank, they should be left alone. Regardless, advancement as a goal shouldn't be mentioned, unless a Scout asks about it.

 

Is this a typical approach? Is it a good approach?

 

 

 

Any response you'd care to make will be appreciated, at least by me!

 

GaHillBilly

[Gold Winger]

I've had more than a few ASMs say, "it's about having fun, isn't it?" If anyone is, the SMs seem to be the ones who are driven advance or die mentallity.

 

The "gang" thing would be good. Unfortunately, in much of our world that's not the case. It used to be "loyalty to school" but today many athletes view their school team as a secondary pursuit because the "scouts" are looking elsewhere. Also, loyalty to a given team is fading because many play for two, three, or even four distinct teams during the year.

 

For many "a Scout" has ceased to be "something you are" and has become "something that you do" either for scholarships or because your parents are making you.

 

I don't know if the peer affiliation isn't possible before puberty. I hung with a pretty tight group of guys in grade school.

 

I think that the desire to advance should come from within. Reminders are okay. I'm astounded at how few Scouts actually read their handbooks but they don't have to because everything is spoon fed to them. Parents insist on "advancement opportunities" but with a decent program, Scouts will advance if they want to but it may not be fast enough to satisfy parents.

[Chippewa29]

Fun is a relative term with many definitions. For some people, fun means goofing around with no direction. I came across a definition of fun a while back that helps to put things in perspective with what we are looking for.

 

"Fun in Scouting is the sense of satisfaction and pride you get from many hours of dedication to something worthwhile. When Scouts feel this sense of 'fun', they are compelled to seek it out again through more success."

 

Not all Scouts are going to agree with that definition, but they just need to go along with it. We have some Scouts just like to go camping or just hang out with the guys. As long as they are not interfering with the purpose of the program for other Scouts, then they are welcome. Some eventually get more excited about advancement and the work involved, but others eventually leave or age out simply with great memories and some great experiences with their friends.

 

 

[AvidSM]

1. This is a hard questions to answer because the word "fun" is overused a lot. So much so that it is almost of form of sarcasm, as in, "Come on, it'll be fun!" What is fun to a boy? My answer to that is, I don't know - go ask a boy! My focus as Scoutmaster is not so much promoting fun as it is getting the boys to plan and execute a program that they want to do - one that will satisfy their needs as scouts. The most memorable momements, the one's the boys reminise about, are the ones that were most challenging or where something went wrong. They talk about the burnt pancakes and the severe thunder storms as the fun times.

 

3. I don't think that Boy Scouting is compromised by the expectations and habits of the incoming Webelos. They know that the two programs are different. If they don't, shame on the Scoutmaster that didn't tell them when they walked in the door!

 

4. The Eagle rank is not for every scout. Each boy, on their own, figures that out at some point in time. The Scoutmaster holds open the door - it's the boy that must decide to walk through it. You don't succeed in scouting by making eagle - you succeed by growing into a responsible mature adult. Some scouts grow up enough to realize that their responsibilities lie elsewhere than in the path to Eagle. To me, giving up the Eagle rank to do the other things in life that you need to get done shows great maturity. That young man is not a failure in my eyes.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

True. I find it fun sometimes to just sleep all morning. Other days its fun to get up and watch the sun rise. Fun can be changing your oil. Fun can be watching someone else change your oil.

 

Usually the people that say "it's about having fun, isn't it?" mean goofing off or parent directed fun.

 

If a Scout never wants to earn a badge, that's fine with me.

[hotdesk]

Whose really requiring the Scoutmaster to push advancement?

 

The requirements for both the Scoutmaster's Key and the Scoutmaster's Award of Merit include rank advancement. They also include earning the Quality Unit Award, which includes rank advancement. We are setting up the leaders to consider advancement.

 

The other place that we push advancement is during recruitment of Webelos.

 

A den is visting two different troops that meet in the same town and during the same time. However,

 

Troop 1: the scouts are all under First Class. It is clear that they are having fun and are bonded and are working on preparing for the next campout.

 

Troop 2: there is a mixed assortment of advancements. There are older scouts who are Eagle. There are new scouts that are under First Class. The rest are mixed inbetween. The meetings are structured (maybe planned by the adults, maybe planned by the scouts). Most of the scouts are having fun, but some seem to be discussing school or other outside activities.

 

Which one are you more likely to join? Troop 1 or Troop 2. Most parents will push their scouts toward Troop 2. They see rank advancement and then they see success.

[Eagledad]

>>The requirements for both the Scoutmaster's Key and the Scoutmaster's Award of Merit include rank advancement. They also include earning the Quality Unit Award, which includes rank advancement. We are setting up the leaders to consider advancement.

[BrentAllen]

GaHillBilly,

Come on up to Dunwoody, you are welcome to join us. :-)

 

If I could have anything tatoo'd on the back of my eyelids, it would be KIS, MIF. Keep it simple, Make it fun. I used to be bad about getting wrapped around the axel coming up with plans for Pack meetings - they were way too complicated, way too involved. The KIS, MIF attitude is also helping direct the boys in our new Troop. I introduced the boys to the old game called Spud, which I found in a 1959 SM Handbook. Very simple rules, but challenging and lots of fun, according to them. They want to play it at every meeting!

Fun does not mean just goof off - it's the exact opposite. Have fun while going through the activities. If the boys aren't having fun (meaning enjoying what they are doing), they are going to vote with their feet. It has been my experience the boys enjoy a good challenge, even more so than just goofing off with their buddies. When describing the type of program I want to build, two words come to mind - challenging and rewarding.

 

2. The gang of boys is a good plan. The problem is, do those boys, who are usually the same age, stay together forever? Or do you move younger boys into those patrols, so the older boys can teach the younger ones? I had an old SM tell me that in his troop, once a boy was PL, the boy moved out of that patrol into either a JLC or other leadership position. He felt the boys didn't like being a regular patrol member after being the leader. I spend a lot of time thinking about that method.

 

I think that bonding comes from experiences shared together. Ask an adult who was a Scout about the camping trips he remembers, and the strongest memories are usually from the most challenging trips - bad weather, long hikes, etc. The teams come together when they really have to rely on each other. Having patrol competitions where you put the boys in the pressure cooker helps to build that bond and patrol identity. This is a big part of the program that I think many Troops don't understand and miss out on.

 

3. I don't think that is the case, if the troop has trained leaders and they insist on new leaders coming up from the Pack get trained.

 

4. Advancement is one of the Methods, and should be included in the program. I've always been taught it is the Troop's responsibility to get the boys to First Class, and then it is up to the boy to DECIDE how far he wants to go after that. That does not mean it is soley up to the boy to get there. The SM should discuss advancement with the new FC Scout and set goals, based on the boy's desires. Advancement has a lot to offer. Leadership, exposure to professions and hobbies. The story is told that Spielberg developed his interest in film after earning Cinematography Merit Badge. Boys like to be praised for their accomplishments - advancement and the MB program provides plenty of opportunities to do that.

 

Since only 5% of Scouts make Eagle, it is obviously not the main goal of Scouting. I see Eagle as being the place you end up at if you have done everything else right. Being Eagle to me means having developed leadership, gained maturity through the trials and tribulations of many nights on the trail, and being well rounded from all the experiences from earning the Merit Badges. Unfortunately, many 14 year old Eagles think they have reached the end of the trail, and they leave Scouting. They have just reached the age where they can attend Philmont, and they disappear! Scouters need to make sure the boys aren't programmed to think Eagle is the end and they are done with Scouting. Reaching Eagle is a new beginning.

 

Good luck with your search for a new Troop.

[Gunny2862]

GaHillBilly,

 

I like all of the others responses, this is my additional spin.

 

1) I think as a new Scoutmaster who is also new to Scouting,< a year, that in my limited Scouting experience that the "fun" program is, in part, a carry over from the Webelos. You have to keep the young Scouts you get - if most of the things they do not have an element of fun then they won't stay involved. And then your troop dies.

 

However, in any group, to include the Marines - having fun doing what you are doing is infinitely preferable to it just "sucking".(Sorry the mild pejorative was about as light as I could go without substituting it's own paragraph) And sometimes that fun is derived from the times when things go wrong and you creatively adapt and overcome the situation.

 

2) I agree, they SHOULD be more like the social group affiliation pattern and that is a part of them incorporating Scouting into their lives not just "going to Scouting" or doing MB's rather than really "traveling the trail to Eagle". But without an active program and a LOT of time together you just don't build the necessary unity that allows individuals to put the groupthink into effect, and it takes even more time together to establish it into a positve modus.

 

3) I think you answered your own question. But it does give you a group of boys and parents to start with.

 

4) In my mind, when I was a Private and Private First Class, I had thought that making it to First Sergeant or Master Sergeant and retiring would have been all that I would have wanted from the Corps(as an Eagle equivalent goal) well I didn't make those goals but I found once I arrived that being a Gunnery Sergeant was really where I wanted to be and don't think now that I would have enjoyed either of those previously mentioned positions as much. Although the First Sergeant track would have led to Sergeant Major which I also think could have been a good time. Now I ask you, did I fail in my military career because I a) didn't become the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps? b) didn't make the First sergeant/ Master Sergeant rank?

 

I realize that there are significant differences here - almost everyone CAN make eagle if they want to - in the military it's not entirely your choice - i.e., postings can place you in competition for advancement with those who have combat experience when you have none(in a recognized combat zone) or in competition with recognized units rather than in strange "Joint" units where no one(on the promotion boards, and few others) knows what you did.

 

The thing I think is important about this is that the SM conferences should be utilized to also educate the young lad on what he needs to do to get to Eagle - while recognizing that it has to be his goal. If my son gets his Eagle I will be proud of him and the work that went into it. As his parent I will proudly wear my acknowledgment pin - but as his SM no part of that Eagle is mine nor the Eagle of any other Scout.

 

We try to ensure that they know what is required and that we make the opportunities available to them - from that point it is their Eagle to earn and/or their Scouting trail to enjoy.

[anarchist]

GaHillBilly,

 

Fun...what I think of as fun (like dropping a deer hair bug next to a log hoping for a small mouth) many scouts find boring so thats why we encourage THEM to build and maintain the program...and then we support it! If THEY find it FUN then there is a chance they stick around longer and absorb more "scouting stuff". Which is not a bad goal?!

 

"Gangs", even todays boy form gaggles of interest and friendship...One of our past SMs remarked as he was about to leave that one of the "coolest" things he found with our program was when he asked a bunch of 17 year olds - boys who has been together (mostly) from Cub Scouts onward (all working toward Eagle)-why they kept coming to meetings?: was they all independently answered..."to hang with my friends". It can and does work! (and the more fun THEY have in the program...the better it works!)

 

feeder packs are good...if you interface and train them as they come up and over- as to what your program expects and what they can do to prepare for boy scouting. And a lot of "truth in advertizing" pays here...particularly for non-feeder pack webelos dens...If they see the "great program" and think it is delivered on a silver platter...you can have a disaster...just watched a patrol nearly self destruct because they expected webelos III...and got boy led instead...a difficult time.

 

Advancement and the Eagle: Boys should be gently "shown how its done their first year...as they are eased towards first class (though I think first class in first year is a terrible goal...). After that advancement really needs to find its place in the heart of the scout...some are driven to achieve rank some are more interested in just camping and hanging together along a mountain trail or along a river...or in a snow hut. Nothing wrong with either. But parents should be careful and walk softly...

 

As a committee member sitting boards, nothing tore at my heart more than hearing the usually sullen though sometimes just disinterested scout says, "I'm only in scouts 'cause dad wants me to make Eagle"...the vast majority of these kids usually come to hate the program and never do make it to eagle...I can't help but wonder if dad just let it be and said "have fun" would the % change?

 

As the father of an "aged out" death-bed Eagle (I know-guys) and a second son who dropped scouting as he approached his Life rank I see little difference in the two boys (not that they are not really night and day apart) but both are good kids,(young men now) both are doing well in college, both still go camping and fishing with me when the time is right (in fact the younger boy camps and does outdoors stuff more than his "Eagle brother". He also regularly goes back and helps his younger troop friends with eagle work progects and goes with me to many Eagle CoRs...Eagle rank truly is great but it is not what the program is really about...

 

As a SM once said to me during a moment of dispair..."scouting would be a lot more fun without the parents"...and to a point he was right...even though he really didn't mean those words...

If parents would back off and let the scouts find their own program direction and then jump in and help make it work- there would be many more scouts staying in the program and having more fun...but as parents our natural inclination is "we can do it better for them"...which sometimes is just not the case.

 

Not every troop is going to be spit 'n' polish, or webelos III or baden powell or the U.S. Marines...but with work they can all offer something to the boys if we just keep them working on it.

 

my two cents

ANARCHIST

[Eagledad]

>>The thing I think is important about this is that the SM conferences should be utilized to also educate the young lad on what he needs to do to get to Eagle - while recognizing that it has to be his goal.

[Gunny2862]

Barry, I'm sorry I probably could have been more clear there.

 

I was really addressing the issue of the Scout not knowing or understanding the Eagle requirements rather than guiding/pushing him along the path.

 

Believe it or not some EAGLE Hovering parents do so with NO understanding of what their son must do to get there (except that it's my fault if it doesn't happen )- and some of the boys who do care on their own don't "get" the advancement system past 1st class.

[ScoutNut]

What's wrong with fun? Would you stay doing an activity that was boring and altogether unenjoyable? Of course not. This is not something these boys and their families HAVE to do. So, no matter what the promised benefits, if it is not enjoyable they will not be there.

 

Robert Baden-Powell stated that Scouting was a "game with a purpose". Aren't games supposed to be fun?

 

BSA is neither a criminal gang or a military outfit and they are not trying to be. By "gang of boys" Baden-Powell meant a small group of boys who are friends. That is what a patrol is, or should be.

 

Cub Scouts, like Boy Scouts like to have fun. Webelos are supposed to be a transition of sorts between the younger boys and the older boys. Why/how could one BSA program comprise the values in another BSA program? The "values" are pretty much the same in both programs.

 

Advancement is supposed to be done at the SCOUTS OWN speed. Not at their SM's or families. That does not mean that they should not be encouraged at all times. Of course they should. They should have every opportunity to learn and advance. They should be mentored and encouraged by their leaders (both youth and adult). However the choice and the timeline is theirs alone.

 

Advancement is only ONE (1) method, of many, of Scouting. It is not the aim or goal of the Scouting program. I have never seen it stated in any BSA program materials that the sole purpose of Boy Scouts is to earn the rank of Eagle.

 

 

A question of my own - Why would a Boy Scout Troop only meet once a month? Other than for convenience, why would you consider joining that type of Troop? Why would the Troop be OK with you using their Troop as simply a base to go out looking for a "better" Troop. Why can't/haven't you been doing that while a member of your current Troop?

[Beavah]

1. My troop's lead ASM recently said, of the overall program, ". . . as long as it's fun. After all, that's what's really important!". I would have expected him to think of 'fun' as necessary, but not a program goal. Is his view typical of most SM's and ASM's?

 

I think many might say that. But the really good adult leaders have a vision for where they want their boys to get - in terms of skills, in terms of character and makin' good choices.

 

I think for kids of Boy Scout age, "fun" means facing a real challenge with your friends and finding yourself successful. More fun is takin' those new skills and deeper friendships into bigger challenges. Fun isn't really "be entertained by others or by program".

 

2. Yep, there's somethin' special about groups that have been through real challenge together. Like the Marines, we create mostly artificial challenge to get kids there. Not boot camp, but at least an "obstacle course" of things to learn and do and work through that's tough. And then we let 'em into the field to face real challenges together. They develop their identity that way. It has a big impact. I think Scouts has gotten away from that feel in many ways, eh? Now as often or not we're just another youth club. Folks that get into required precision uniformin' "feel" that, too, I think, but they're goin' after a symptom, not a cause.

 

3. Don't know about the peer affiliation thing; maybe its da willingness to be on your own facing challenges that changes with adolescence. I think in a lot of ways da modern cub program, as it is typically run, really hurts recruitment and retention into Boy Scoutin'.

 

4. I think yeh were probably pushin' too much, HillBilly. If a lad wanted to pursue a bunch of non-Eagle badges because they were interestin' and challenging - more interesting and challenging than Eagle for him - then I'd say "great, go for it!". I'd even try to find him some really interestin', really tough counselors to give him challenge & success. Fun.

 

Some of those Eagle Required Badges are gawd-awful boring! Leastways, as they're usually done.

 

Nuthin' wrong with kids setting their own goals. But it's always a bit rough to have adults settin' goals for kids based on what the adult's interest is. Advancement's only a tool, and only 1/8 of Scoutin'. An interestin' question to ask yourself might be "why didn't the kids think of Eagle as particularly valuable?" Too much of an adult thing? Not challengin' enough?

 

I agree with everybody else, though. A troop should help the lads a bit along the trail, especially the young ones. Get 'em to First Class and "competent", encourage and invite leadership/responsibility. After that, it's their deal.

 

Good luck with your quest. Don't let "perfect" be the enemy of "good enough" in your search.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

About those merit badges, GAHillBilly.

 

So far my son is not real interested in rank advancement. But he is enjoying, and learning from, the advancement part of the program in other ways. He thinks he might want to be a scientist, but at his age (late middle school) "science" is a big, general topic and he doesn't know exactly what sorts of science he likes more or less than others. So he's slowly working his way through a bunch of different science-related MBs. None of them except environmental science will really help him along the way toward Star, Life, or Eagle. So far he's discovered that chemistry isn't as much fun as he thought it might be (not all explosions and magic tricks!) and oceanography started out sounding interesting, but the details didn't excite him at all. On the other hand, Astronomy, Space Exploration, Soil & Water Conservation, Reptiles & Amphibians, and Fish & Wildlife Management all hit the sweet spot for him. So now he's beginning to narrow it down and he is discovering he really likes the more applied focus of the environmentally-related badges, as well as the physics that goes with learning about astronomy and rocket trajectories. (October Sky is his favorite movie right now...). He's got a counselor in mind for a couple more of the science MBs over the next year and she's really good (a high school biology teacher, to boot). Of course, he might change his mind next week too...but at least he's getting a taste of what the different disciplines of "science" are like and isn't that what the MB program is REALLY for?