How Much Commitment is Enough?

[insanescouter]

In my humble opion setting strict rules is never the answer and just leads up to policy wars, and wars and often leaves a door open to inturputation...

 

You will never be able to get 100% attendance ... but nor should Scouting come "Second" to sports or other programs. It is up to the Scout and the parent to balance the two.

 

Here is what I suggest think creatively and work hard to have the PLC put on a program so amazing no-one young or old will want to miss out... yes this is eaiser said then done, but look at the past, if it has been done, it can be done again ...

 

When you have a solid program, you will have a solid committee, and then and only then will you not have a serious attendance problem.

 

OK I will admit my statement is a bit idealistic and is just my wacky 2 cents ...

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

Helping leaders on resource at a time....

[hotdesk]

It is true that the more you improve the program you offer the more your attendance will increase. We have diffently improved our program and outings during the past 10 years that I have been in my troop and I have certainly saw an increase in recruitment and attendance percentage.

 

our troop does not require 100% attendance. We do track attendance to all activities. However, if a scout is going to miss an activity, meeting or other troop function it is expected that they call their Patrol Leader, and, if they cannot get ahold of the PL, then the Senior Patrol Leader. When they call they need to let the leader know why they are missing the function. If they do this it counts as an "excused absence". If they do not they are absent.

 

Our troop also has requirements for scouts when we do elections. The Senior Patrol Leader and Assistant Senior Patrol Leader have to attend 2/3 of the meetings in the past 6 months and 50% of the outings during the past 2 years.

 

Patrol Leader are expected to attend 1/2 of the meetings in the past six months and 50% of the outings during the past 2 years.

 

After they are elected we stress the fact that they cannot really do their job if they are not present. We let them know that they are expected to set the example and tone for everything, including attendance. Therefore, our PLC does not have a attendance issue. They do not want to let us down.

[adanecito]

All great ideas/policies. Does anyone put these in the bylaws? Once you reach an agreement about commitments and rules what do you do to pass them along to the next generation of Scouters and Scouts? Where do you draw the line on putting it on paper? Would it be a bylaw or a guidence document?

 

Thx,

-Tony

[OldGreyEagle]

I was trying to stay out of this, but once bylaws are mentioned, well, then I want to be sure to have the thread include what constitutes "active" according to the BSA. This is from:

 

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html

 

Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined?

 

Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:

 

He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).

He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.

He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).

 

And least then some of the adults say, thats OK, we will get them with "Scout Spirit", then following the above link you have:

 

Question: Rank advancement requires a Scout to demonstrate Scout spirit. How is Scout spirit defined and determined?

 

Answer: Scout spirit applies to how a Scout lives and conducts his daily life. He shows Scout spirit by being a role model to his peers, living by the Scout Oath and Law. The concept of Scout spirit is not based on how many Scouting events or outings a Scout attends, but rather by how he helps bring out the best in others as a reflection of his own character and attitude in his daily life.

 

Troops don't need by-laws, but I understand they are frequently used. As I have observed, By-Laws tend to be used for punitive purposes rather than anything else. The Scout Oath and Law should be the basis of the units operation. Operational documents, such as what and when dues are, meetings, ect. are valuable and there are those who don't differentiate between them. I thought that since you are talking By-laws, you should have the BSA definitions.

[BrentAllen]

We don't really plan on having any written by-laws to cover the subjects in this thread. I do plan on letting new Scouts know what our expectations are, through an interview process. Hopefully that will head off the need for any by-laws. I think if the boys are given a clear understanding of the expectations, there won't be any need for by-laws. Those expectations then just become part of the Troop culture, and are passed down by the boys to the next generation.

 

One has to understand that definition from National is aimed at keeping boys on the rolls and membership up. I would ask anyone who believes that is the only expectation they need to set in their Troop for "active" Scouts to please explain how that defines "active" in the boy's patrol. A Scout is active in his patrol simply because he has paid his dues? I wonder what his PL and other patrol members would have to say about that?

[Gunny2862]

I understand about sport conflicts, and frankly I expect Coaches to understand that they don't want one-dimensional players either. The key for me is to communicate early and often with the coach and let him know that I won't take advantage of him and his time. Nor do I want to be taken advantage of by attempting to deliver a program to a group of boys who don't regularly show up.

 

So, If my boy needs to leave practice an hour early on one friday during the season to make the departure time for a long trip, I let the coach know at least a week in advance. And then he still goes to an hour of the two hour practice if I don't need to pull him for the whole thing.

Conversely, if a Scout isn't going to make a trip on Friday then I don't expect a maybe or a yes on Monday but that they say no they aren't going on this trip - and if possible I would like to hear if it is a problem with Scouting or is it that the Debate tournament fell afoul of our schedule.

 

As far as weekly goes I have the same kinds of expectations - if you are a wrestler(or whatever) and wrestling(or whatever) season is coming up then that is a bad time for you to run for SPL - and you will be removed for failure to do the job. Just like the coach would pull my son off of First string if he missed X number of practices or wasn't doing the job - that's the expectation of being on the team; that you get it done. I could probably even see letting an SPL through his period of responsibility IF, I say again, IF he could manage to set the troop/patrol meetings agendas without being there, Give his ASPL all of his input on upcoming issues, and then actually LEAD on campouts while only having attended a lets say 50% of the weekly meetings. After all it's only fair, if an SPL who couldn't do as well but attended all of the meetings was signed off on.

[Beavah]

Here is what I suggest think creatively and work hard to have the PLC put on a program so amazing no-one young or old will want to miss out... yes this is eaiser said then done, but look at the past, if it has been done, it can be done again ...

 

Yah, more fuel for da fire...

 

Is it more likely to put on an "amazing" program if attendance is higher (and expected)? Easier to get adults out? More likely to have kids be enthusiastic in support of each other?

 

Most important, aren't yeh able to do more advanced and interestin' stuff with higher attendance?

 

Around here, da one area where troops and the council are fairly firm about attendance expectations is high-adventure trips. If you want to participate, you must do the pre-trip meetings and shakedowns and such. This preparation enables the group to do something more challenging successfully. If they just had 50% or less attendance, then those guys would be a safety hazard or would hold the whole group back from doin' the tougher, cooler stuff.

 

Same as band or sports, eh?

 

Those high adventure trips, though... da boys come back sayin' it was the best thing they ever did in their life. They come back fired up and enthused and wantin' to do more.

 

It might be that program leads to higher attendance.... but it sure also seems like expectin' higher attendance is a key ingredient of stronger, more exciting program.

 

Beavah

[John-in-KC]

B,

 

They do feed on themselves. Even so, if I had "program strength" and "boots at the meeting" challenges at the same time, I think I'd start by solving the program strength challenge.

[OldGreyEagle]

Here's a thought. It may require a rework on what we hold dear, but consider this. Maybe the best definition of "active" is that what the scoutmaster and scout develop during their scoutmaster conference. The scoutmaster asks the scout what he want to do as a first class scout (example) and the scout says he want to be a patrol guide. The scoutmaster asks if the scout understands the role of patrol guide and reviews the duties and responsibilities of the postion. What the expectations are and how they are measured. If its the fall, and the scout says he wants to be quartermaster and the scoutmaster asks if the scout being in the high school band will effect that, maybe the scout realizes this is not the time to be quartermaster as the band plays at football games every saturday and the scout is needed on site at camp outs as well. The scout and scoutmaster set up an agreement as to what needs to be done and how and when it is to be done. Maybe the scout doesnt get a position of responsibility until after band season, as a consequence of being in Band and scouts but he does manage to stay in both. Perhaps rather than try to jam multi faceted scouts into a a single sized round hole, we rely on scoutmasters to assess the scout and work with him to come up with a meaningful scouting experience (working within BSA policies of course).

 

Now, this approach is much more difficult to administer as it regards scouts as individuals and its easier to take roll call and have members meet a specific attendance requirement than look at every one separately, but it is an idea

[Gunny2862]

John, I as usual, agree.

 

OGE, you mean assess the Scouts as individuals? Heresy. But I like it.

[Beavah]

Even so, if I had "program strength" and "boots at the meeting" challenges at the same time, I think I'd start by solving the program strength challenge.

 

Yah, KC, I reckon that's too simplistic an answer, eh?

 

I expect what you'd need to do is figure out why yeh have program strength challenges.

 

It might be because your youth leaders aren't makin' real commitments and aren't showin' up often enough to plan and execute a good program, eh? So you'd start with the boots problem. Or you'd say that they need more fun and excitement like a high adventure program, which gets yeh back to da boots problem 'cause that's necessary for most high adventure programs (because of safety and planning/finance requiring commitment). Just one example.

 

Those band and sports team folks, they don't start with program, eh? Football team could be 0-12 and bottom of da league and they'd still expect near 100% attendance .

 

Beavah

 

[adanecito]

Thanks Everyone for continued discussion. As I mentioned earlier we are slowly settling for 75% Meetings and 50% campouts for attendence which I realize to learn and experieince is important.

What we decide to do as far as document for future use is anyones guess but I like all the ideas presented and have copied/pasted to emails some of the phrases to my SM who likes and agrees and will use some for his SM minute.

 

I did start up an interesting thread with the SM about how those Scouts working on Eagles and working for future college funds or other activities to show up on there scholarship applications. We agreed it important not to discourage them from finishing Eagle and cut some slack for them regarding attendence. It will be interesting how commitment is discussed regarding that group (Life working on Eagle).

 

 

Many Thanks the discussions give me hope for Scouting and the young men.

 

-Tony

[John-in-KC]

B,

 

Am going to agree and disagree.

 

At one level, agree a more complex analysis of root causes is needed for any one specific unit.

 

Disagree that you cannot cut to the chase at the macro level. Have a good friend who is a six digit a year project leader for EDS. We worked together in a two-star HQ at Rock Island Arsenal. He was brought in because he is a manufacturing engineer by his civilian job, I came in because I'm moderately well versed in Army collective training for senior leadership. He always starts by forcing folks to go to a "100,000 foot" view, and then look in.

 

At a macro view, you can make the fundamental decision of an issue being rooted in A or B (or perhaps C). Then you can better apply limited resources (time, talent, and treasure) at solving the big problems first.

 

As for the 0-12 football team, it often ends up with a new program officer!

 

Going back to your example of a HA trip, what you proposed isn't unreasonable: Leaders can and properly should expect a time and energy committment from the participants. They're going someplace where they may have to be more self-reliant. They need to be ready for the long day on the trail!

 

Leadership, in a unit, also should have reasonable expectations. I do not think it unreasonable for a SM to ask for an "on my honor" commitment from a Scout before he stands for office or accepts an appointed POR. I further think it fully reasonable that the SM contact the Scouts parents and make sure they understand the commitment in terms of his time and energy.

 

No one said the job of a Scouter is easy. They did say it would be rewarding.

[BrentAllen]

OGE,

That is exactly my idea of Scouting, and describes the troop I grew up in. The SM and other leaders had a sincere interest in us as individuals. Our troop was really like a big family, in many ways. It is much easier to coach and counsel the boys when they really trust you and know you have their best interest at heart. Didn't we learn something like that in Wood Badge? :-)

 

[FScouter]

"As I mentioned earlier we are slowly settling for 75% Meetings and 50% campouts for attendance ..."

 

Adanecito, just a couple of thoughts.

How long is the time period you would include in the attendance calculation? Just this year, since the kid's last rank advancement? Since he joined up? Does Cub Scout attendance count? Will the mechanics of this be spelled out in the bylaw?

 

What action will you take if a kid drops below the minimum? If you make attendance a formal written "bylaw", what will be the punishment for violations?

 

If a kids attendance percentage is currently well above the minimum, do you think he may decide to blow off a few activities because he would still be over the minimum?

 

Has anyone analyzed why the kids dont attend meetings and activities? Is an attendance bylaw the best way to fix a poor attendance problem? Will an attendance bylaw inspire kids to be more active in their patrol and troop? Will an attendance bylaw improve Scouting for kids?